[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Reghame]

There is no chimera shot anymore, arcane shot is gone if im not mistaken, and black arrow is a talent that would not be used for PVP since its for raising minions from killed targets. most of hunter damage for ALL specs is physical now.

- - - Updated - - -

and BTW, rets are less vulnerable to stuns and most general lock downs than most specs (barring frost mage with their new PVP talent) saying "CC theM" is a terrible argument because not only does it work on everyone else, but vs ret it is possibly not that great of an idea to throw all of your CC at them or even their allies anymore.

[Dauntless86]

I think he said it's just locked in combat no? When I was playing the blessings dropped after each pull. There's no way that's intended.

Aye, the nonsense combat-lock is intended. The way they are constantly dropping since the last patch is not.

[Ulthane]

so dispellable SoV is ok?
dispellable, long-ass cd on HoF is ok too?
no healing besides FoL(which is impotent until artifact traits are unlocked) is ok?
two entirely different class mechanics which actively clash against each other(combopoints vs colossus judgement of smash) is ok?

Sorry, I just can't grasp how you could objectively rate this greater design higher than 2
Stressing out "objectively"

E4E is simply countered by attacking Ret from behind.
so very graet talent.

Reasons I kept saying SoV needed to be 30 second CD and the Trait needed to buff the absorb <.<

[Morally Grey Storm]

and BTW, rets are less vulnerable to stuns and most general lock downs than most specs .

godfuck damning reghiment.

- - - Updated - - -

Reasons I kept saying SoV needed to be 30 second CD and the Trait needed to buff the absorb <.<

ikr?

I can't for the life of me figure out why this shitstain of a spell has such a lengthy cooldown and dispel vulnerability to boot ontop of being on-the-gcd.

[ruiizu]

godfuck damning reghiment.

- - - Updated - - -


ikr?

I can't for the life of me figure out why this shitstain of a spell has such a lengthy cooldown and dispel vulnerability to boot ontop of being on-the-gcd.

The worst part is actually the "on the GCD" part. The same goes for Eye for an Eye. They both fall victim to "you can't do that while dead" syndrome. But yes, the CD on Shield of Vengeance is too high. 1 min if it were to become immune to dispels, 30 sec if it were vulnerable I think is pretty fair. It's not the worst ability we have (I use it fairly often) but it suffers from the aforementioned problems making it a lot worse than it could be.

[nyc81991]

They really should bring back "Empowered Divine Storm" passive or something similar to it that brings Divine Storm into the single target rotation and breaks things up / adds more to the rotation. Especially now that one of the Ashbringer talents makes Divine Storm heal allies again like in Wotlk and sends it 20 yards forward.

Hell I would even take it over Divine Purpose as a talent since the only thing you are using the procs on now are TV and DS (unless you specifically spec into WoG).

[ruiizu]

They really should bring back "Empowered Divine Storm" passive or something similar to it that brings Divine Storm into the single target rotation and breaks things up / adds more to the rotation. Especially now that one of the Ashbringer talents makes Divine Storm heal allies again like in Wotlk and sends it 20 yards forward.

Hell I would even take it over Divine Purpose as a talent since the only thing you are using the procs on now are TV and DS (unless you specifically spec into WoG).

The heal is really, really wussy though. Leveling up the tooltip was like 18k, when I had 600k. That's like 3%~.

[nyc81991]

The heal is really, really wussy though. Leveling up the tooltip was like 18k, when I had 600k. That's like 3%~.

Yeah it is on the low side but it is still some extra utility which is better than not having it at all.

[ruiizu]

Yeah it is on the low side but it is still some extra utility which is better than not having it at all.

It's sort of okay when you're spamming AE I guess. I liked Empowered Divine Storm too, but mainly because it worked with Divine Purpose for proc city.

[nyc81991]

It's sort of okay when you're spamming AE I guess. I liked Empowered Divine Storm too, but mainly because it worked with Divine Purpose for proc city.

That is part of why I would like to see it baseline. It would make Divine Purpose more interesting / fun. Not to mention the baseline rotation. Added with the fact that it now has a 20 yard range of AoE healing it would be useful and fun in my opinion.

[Snegovik]

Blue says: Ret must counter Mage/Rogue/Priest
really? to do that, somemechanics need to be reworked.
unbreakeable will: every time you are cc'ed, you are healing 3% of your total hp every 3 secs, for 9 seconds
vengance aura. retribution baseline spell, replaced with: sanctity aura - every time you are dispelled, the enemy take 5% of their total hp as holy damage (usseles against non-dispeller teams, so we can use other talents)
law and order: hand of hindrace is now a physical effect and have 10 secs cd
justicar vengance: replaces templar's veredict (still beneficts with all perks and talents), and cost 3 hp, but still do 100% more dmg/helaing to stuned targets (the old omg stuned gg)
blinding light: 45 secs cd
and every ability that use spell power now use attack power instead

maybe with those changes, we can beat RPM

Person who posted that, does not PvP. RMD/RMP historically countered Ret teams in PvP, and i do not have to go about duels Ret vs Mage/Rogue/Disc all 3 classes can dominate an average Ret even a good one if u mess up. Just another example that people who are in charge of Ret's design never broke 1.5k Rated as Ret or PvP as Ret in general.

[ruiizu]

Person who posted that, does not PvP. RMD/RMP historically countered Ret teams in PvP, and i do not have to go about duels Ret vs Mage/Rogue/Disc all 3 classes can dominate an average Ret even a good one if u mess up. Just another example that people who are in charge of Ret's design never broke 1.5k Rated as Ret or PvP as Ret in general.

I rarely have lost to Rogues. That aside, Mage counters Ret pretty well ever since they added Spell Steal. Honestly before that I would have said Ret was a good match for Mage at times because they could outlast them with Freedoms, heals, etc. But Spell Steal has been around a very long, long time. Not to mention instant ranged attacks like Ice Lance put us out of commission for a long time too.

If we were to counter Mages, they would have to not be able to dispel everything we can do. Also worth noting Blessing of Sanctuary doesn't remove Sheep and we can't exactly Cleanse magic anymore. If anything I'd say we counter Warlocks more than Mages.

[Deleted]

I have to say, after the last two beta patches, the spec feels much better to play.

Mobility still sucks, and effective use of Flash of Light and DS are still gated behind the artifact (needless hindrances imo), but I can actually see myself maining Ret now. That's a far cry from a month ago.

Echo of the Highlord isn't very popular. Maybe it would be worthwhile to remove it and bring back Art of War in its place. Choice between 100% crit, instant FoL or a free Judgment. Much better use of a gold trait than Echo presently is.

I really like what you are suggesting there! I also would add that Divine Steed should be baseline and a new proper talent should be added instead.. I would like to add something like Charge of Conviction, the Light breaks you free from any "loose of control" effects and increases your movement speed by 70% for 3 sec. with a 45 sec. CD

The proc chance for Divine Purpose is too low at the moment and should be increased (probably somewhere around 30%) in order to be really useful and Crusade obviously needs to be buffed in order to keep up with the other talents.


The whole blessing system is still very clunky as most people suggested before! I would prefer that you can cast it on yourself and people who get are in range of your character for example within 8 yards do profit from the same effect!

I hope someone can post these suggestions on the Paladin feedback forums for the BETA.

[Snegovik]

I rarely have lost to Rogues. That aside, Mage counters Ret pretty well ever since they added Spell Steal. Honestly before that I would have said Ret was a good match for Mage at times because they could outlast them with Freedoms, heals, etc. But Spell Steal has been around a very long, long time. Not to mention instant ranged attacks like Ice Lance put us out of commission for a long time too.

If we were to counter Mages, they would have to not be able to dispel everything we can do. Also worth noting Blessing of Sanctuary doesn't remove Sheep and we can't exactly Cleanse magic anymore. If anything I'd say we counter Warlocks more than Mages.

The blue post was mainly referring to Arenas, personally i find a great Rogue (Glad-r1 lvl) is the most dreadful dps to face in Arena as Ret. I just found it funny since RMP alw did good vs Ret teams, ever since i started pvping as ret in Mid Wrath.
Well, i forgot last time i lost a duel in general, i think it was a Glad destro lock back in Cata? but thats cuz i have tricks up my sleeve if i am facing a very good fire mage (who should counter ret on Open), yet on average a mage/rogue should counter Ret, since good players will just make u waste ur cds, resert the fight with sheeps/blind-sap and when you are all our of cds, ull die. Btw Mage is the one who usually outlasts Rets, not other way around =) unless mage has very little idea how to fight Ret.

[Reghame]

Yeah it is on the low side but it is still some extra utility which is better than not having it at all.

they brought that back as a artifact trait which heals anyone near you as well in 5 yards. so on AOE the ret with that talent is healing all his melee buddies for like 3% hp every time they divine storm.

- - - Updated - - -

also, when your specced into divine tempest, anyone in the cleave path for divine storm also gets healed. so divine storm turns into a skillshot heal/damaging ability with those two traits.

[Temna]

so dispellable SoV is ok?
dispellable, long-ass cd on HoF is ok too?
no healing besides FoL(which is impotent until artifact traits are unlocked) is ok?
two entirely different class mechanics which actively clash against each other(combopoints vs colossus judgement of smash) is ok?

Sorry, I just can't grasp how you could objectively rate this greater design higher than 2
Stressing out "objectively"

Hence I left you those pitchforks but I'll bite for the sake of debate.

May main reasoning is that I dont entirely mind the Judgement system as it stands, ya a bit lazy but other then that its more a starting grounds. My main issue overall in terms of "Combat" is the toxicity within the kit, mainly GBoM. That I think we can agree is bad.

As for the points you raised, I am not debating the lack of heals, I do agree we need more of a healing presence if we are gonna be the "support"dps. Though in fairness, things are intended to be balanced out around having a full artifact so THAT part doesnt bug me so much. A return of supplication or even a talent that increases the crit chance and adds a HoT on crit (<3 sheath of light) would do some good.

As for dispelable HoF, thats always been part of the deal hasn't it? SoV being dispel-able...eh, kinda blows, but honestly i agree with ruiizu that the biggest issue is that its on the gcd more then anything.

[Dremall]

I ran some bgs on the PTR on my mage and spell steal has become way overpowered. The mana cost is a non issue when your targeting one or two specific buffs off of someone. It was way too easy to just wait for a buff to come up and pick it off. Same with other dispelling classes. When they pruned buffs it reduced the total pool of spells that could be stolen so your either taking something good for yourself, or at the least denying someone else. I do not think it would be at all unreasonable to add a 5 second cd to offensive dispells and spell steal.

Not a fan of the blessing system. Usually just end up putting them on myself as the tank initiates combat before you can even consider buffing someone else. More organized groups it might be less tedious, but randoms stick them on yourself.

The proc chance on Divine Purpose does feel very very low. I think 30% is a little too high. I think that it will come up, 20% 25 at the very most.

I would like to see consecration go baseline to help our baseline aoe toolkit, and get something else in place of that talent.

At this point in time outside of numbers I just don't see much changing till 7.1 at the earliest.

[Reghame]

I rarely have lost to Rogues. That aside, Mage counters Ret pretty well ever since they added Spell Steal. Honestly before that I would have said Ret was a good match for Mage at times because they could outlast them with Freedoms, heals, etc. But Spell Steal has been around a very long, long time. Not to mention instant ranged attacks like Ice Lance put us out of commission for a long time too.

If we were to counter Mages, they would have to not be able to dispel everything we can do. Also worth noting Blessing of Sanctuary doesn't remove Sheep and we can't exactly Cleanse magic anymore. If anything I'd say we counter Warlocks more than Mages.

i think the sense they made with that is ret is not intended to go up to a mage and beat them to death. which is true. one does not simply blow all their shit on a mage and expect to get a kill. However, ret can slow them down and play around the mage just as well as they have in the past via cancel aura macros for freedom and the like. We also have to time our BoJ and HoH casts when fighting the mage as well.

Am i saying we will crush them because we counter them? no, but ret can outplay a mage and beat them (and boy when you do it feels so good compared to live where you spam emancipate all game and LoS like a bitch trying not to die because you cant survive, run away from them, or do damage to a mage on live)

[Aerknard]

I rarely have lost to Rogues. That aside, Mage counters Ret pretty well ever since they added Spell Steal. Honestly before that I would have said Ret was a good match for Mage at times because they could outlast them with Freedoms, heals, etc. But Spell Steal has been around a very long, long time. Not to mention instant ranged attacks like Ice Lance put us out of commission for a long time too.

If we were to counter Mages, they would have to not be able to dispel everything we can do. Also worth noting Blessing of Sanctuary doesn't remove Sheep and we can't exactly Cleanse magic anymore. If anything I'd say we counter Warlocks more than Mages.

If we were to counter Mages, they would have to not be able to dispel everything we can do. Also worth noting Blessing of Sanctuary doesn't remove Sheep and we can't exactly Cleanse magic anymore. If anything I'd say we counter Warlocks more than Mages.[/QUOTE]

Personally, for Blizz to said "Ret counter Mage" must be over claim. Correct me if I make mistake. My simplest simulation regarding Ret vs Mage:

"Ret use Blessing of Freedom"
"Mage use Spell Steal"
"Ret use Divine Steed"
"Mage use Ray of Frost"
Oh no Ret Catch up and ready his Almighty WINGS
"Mage use Polymorph" while running away
"Ret use the speed of light of "W-key"
"Mage blink away"
Repeat, repeat, repeat...

Yeah Ret spell shouldn't be easily stolen. That would be the 1st step.
I play Ret Pally recently in WOD. I don't really like it nor dislike it. But in Legion it shift to dislike.
Blizzard point it out that Ret will lack of Mobility. But ret defensive and utility isn't all that great
Besides our damage is so-so. There is no Juggernaut vibe when Ret as an enemy getting closer.

[ruiizu]

If we were to counter Mages, they would have to not be able to dispel everything we can do. Also worth noting Blessing of Sanctuary doesn't remove Sheep and we can't exactly Cleanse magic anymore. If anything I'd say we counter Warlocks more than Mages.

Personally, for Blizz to said "Ret counter Mage" must be over claim. Correct me if I make mistake. My simplest simulation regarding Ret vs Mage:

"Ret use Blessing of Freedom"
"Mage use Spell Steal"
"Ret use Divine Steed"
"Mage use Ray of Frost"
Oh no Ret Catch up and ready his Almighty WINGS
"Mage use Polymorph" while running away
"Ret use the speed of light of "W-key"
"Mage blink away"
Repeat, repeat, repeat...

Yeah Ret spell shouldn't be easily stolen. That would be the 1st step.
I play Ret Pally recently in WOD. I don't really like it nor dislike it. But in Legion it shift to dislike.
Blizzard point it out that Ret will lack of Mobility. But ret defensive and utility isn't all that great
Besides our damage is so-so. There is no Juggernaut vibe when Ret as an enemy getting closer.[/QUOTE]

I mean, that isn't really an ideal example. With Hand of Hindrance, the Mage running away is going to be running very, very slowly. If you didn't engage on your mount, you're already at a huge disadvantage to begin with (this happens in BGs a lot, so it's inevitable of course). But if you're mid battle, they might be missing CDs as well (Blink isn't "always" ready).

Ret can definitely beat mages, but it's a frustrating battle. The better access you have to LoS, the more likely you can beat them.

One other thing to note: Unbreakable Will actually helps a lot against Mages since you can break out of their sheep without having to burn Bubble or Trinket. If it's an "outlast" fight, that just means our Unbreakable Will has more time to come off CD.

Overall though I think Spell Steal is just too good against us. I really think some of our spells need dispel protection or at the very least dispel revenge. As "Retribution" where a lot of what we do is about righteous vengeance, I'm totally someone that thinks we can have our stuff be able to be dispelled, but it hurts the person using dispel in some way in that case (silence, damage, invokes longer CD on their dispel, whatever).

Last tidbit: If you're using Wake of Ashes early, that also slows without wasting your HoH.

- - - Updated - - -

The blue post was mainly referring to Arenas, personally i find a great Rogue (Glad-r1 lvl) is the most dreadful dps to face in Arena as Ret. I just found it funny since RMP alw did good vs Ret teams, ever since i started pvping as ret in Mid Wrath.
Well, i forgot last time i lost a duel in general, i think it was a Glad destro lock back in Cata? but thats cuz i have tricks up my sleeve if i am facing a very good fire mage (who should counter ret on Open), yet on average a mage/rogue should counter Ret, since good players will just make u waste ur cds, resert the fight with sheeps/blind-sap and when you are all our of cds, ull die. Btw Mage is the one who usually outlasts Rets, not other way around =) unless mage has very little idea how to fight Ret.

I didn't usually have an issue being outlasted by Mages as Ret. I don't need to get out of combat to heal and have Resurrection. Also sheeping me heals me. If anything I've been able to wear mages out of their Ice Blocks until they're done. Strangely Fire Mages actually gave me more trouble than Arcane or Frost.