[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Aerknard]

Oh, i got a question Ruiizu. Does Ret will have 2 anti-cc trinket? 1 from Ashbringer and 1 from pvp talent?
and if we stack haste, will it reduce our Unbreakable will, and pvp talent trinket?

Edited: and 1 from human racial stun specialist trinket? so maybe 3

[Snegovik]

I didn't usually have an issue being outlasted by Mages as Ret. I don't need to get out of combat to heal and have Resurrection. Also sheeping me heals me. If anything I've been able to wear mages out of their Ice Blocks until they're done. Strangely Fire Mages actually gave me more trouble than Arcane or Frost.

Ya thats what i meant too (probably lost in translation ;(. ) that fire mage is only mage spec that sometimes forces me to use one of my tricks to win the duel, frost and arcane i can just do tunnel vision of a nub with wings and win.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, i got a question Ruiizu. Does Ret will have 2 anti-cc trinket? 1 from Ashbringer and 1 from pvp talent?
and if we stack haste, will it reduce our Unbreakable will, and pvp talent trinket?

Edited: and 1 from human racial stun specialist trinket? so maybe 3

Well u cant stack any stats for that matter in Legion since we get a set template when we enter pvp combat. Ashbringer trinket is a crap, it trinkets 1st cc you are in, minor or big, it is almost useless in arena or RBGs. Only real use is maybe duels.
Edit: Ofc dep on comp u are facing but as human you would pick more often 20% cc reduction talent rather than trinket on use from ur pvp talents.

[Teleros]

Overall though I think Spell Steal is just too good against us. I really think some of our spells need dispel protection or at the very least dispel revenge.

I'd just slap a decent CD on it. 30secs perhaps?

There's so few magic buffs in Legion that making mages have to think about when & where to use Spellsteal should be an improvement over mindlessly spamming it.

[Ulthane]

The worst part is actually the "on the GCD" part. The same goes for Eye for an Eye. They both fall victim to "you can't do that while dead" syndrome. But yes, the CD on Shield of Vengeance is too high. 1 min if it were to become immune to dispels, 30 sec if it were vulnerable I think is pretty fair. It's not the worst ability we have (I use it fairly often) but it suffers from the aforementioned problems making it a lot worse than it could be.

Given we have no more Divine protection for raid defensive cd we kinda need something : /

[Snegovik]

I'd just slap a decent CD on it. 30secs perhaps?

There's so few magic buffs in Legion that making mages have to think about when & where to use Spellsteal should be an improvement over mindlessly spamming it.

now now my friend, dont be mean to Mages, we cant upset Blizzard's favorite child, now can we? No nerfs are needed just more buffs to mages.

[Aerknard]

Thx Snegovik, i totally forgotten about cc reduction skill.

lol, so that make Ret step child. But I thought Ret was Posterboy in WOD and Legion.
WOD for Draenei theme, and Legion when they introduce new pvp system in video Legion overview

[Snegovik]

Thx Snegovik, i totally forgotten about cc reduction skill.

lol, so that make Ret step child. But I thought Ret was Posterboy in WOD and Legion.
WOD for Draenei theme, and Legion when they introduce new pvp system in video Legion overview

no problem =) also dont forget that Human racial and PvP trinket have internal cd, i believe 30 sec in Legion, so u cant use 1 after each other. I think what would make Ashbringer's trinket a good talent if we could use it on use, not a auto 1st cc

[ruiizu]

The Ashbringer CC break gets wasted mainly on Sap. Mages could naturally open with a Polymorph on you just to waste it, but chances are they aren't going to want to waste DR that early, whereas Sap only works before combat.

Overall it's still a useful trait. Much more useful than a lot of the rest (significantly more enjoyable than Echo of the Highlord).

[Morally Grey Storm]

Hence I left you those pitchforks but I'll bite for the sake of debate.

I would rather you left a chainsaw

May main reasoning is that I dont entirely mind the Judgement system as it stands, ya a bit lazy but other then that its more a starting grounds.

this "new" judgement system would be totally fine (maybe) if it didn't clash with our already existing system, that is combogeneration.
These two systems actively clash against each other, where one wants you to pool, and other ur ges you to constantly spend.

My main issue overall in terms of "Combat" is the toxicity within the kit, mainly GBoM. That I think we can agree is bad.

No, we can't.
It's fething awful, not just "bad"

As for the points you raised, I am not debating the lack of heals, I do agree we need more of a healing presence if we are gonna be the "support"dps. Though in fairness, things are intended to be balanced out around having a full artifact so THAT part doesnt bug me so much. A return of supplication or even a talent that increases the crit chance and adds a HoT on crit (<3 sheath of light) would do some good.

oh yes, our healing is rather bland in Legion.
Supplication, why was it removed to begin with I do not understand, it was fine.
Crit HoTs...while I thoroughly enjoyed these in WotLK, I doubt we would ever see such glory days again, alas.

As for dispelable HoF, thats always been part of the deal hasn't it? SoV being dispel-able...eh, kinda blows, but honestly i agree with ruiizu that the biggest issue is that its on the gcd more then anything.

Yes it was a part of the deal, but we had Magic Cleanse or Emancipate to fall back upon as well and that was just as such a part of the deal .
Now we don't.
So one of 2 of our "major" defensive (lul) CD's is dispellable and absorbs for shit, and you're ok?
I am left aghast.

- - - Updated - - -

also, when your specced into divine tempest, anyone in the cleave path for divine storm also gets healed. so divine storm turns into a skillshot heal/damaging ability with those two traits.

so a spender which deals 1/3 worth of damage of a single TV is a skillshot now?
As for the healing part - really? Is this some kind of joke?

[ruiizu]

I would rather you left a chainsaw


this "new" judgement system would be totally fine (maybe) if it didn't clash with our already existing system, that is combogeneration.
These two systems actively clash against each other, where one wants you to pool, and other ur ges you to constantly spend.


No, we can't.
It's fething awful, not just "bad"



oh yes, our healing is rather bland in Legion.
Supplication, why was it removed to begin with I do not understand, it was fine.
Crit HoTs...while I thoroughly enjoyed these in WotLK, I doubt we would ever see such glory days again, alas.

Yes it was a part of the deal, but we had Magic Cleanse or Emancipate to fall back upon as well and that was just as such a part of the deal .
Now we don't.
So one of 2 of our "major" defensive (lul) CD's is dispellable and absorbs for shit, and you're ok?
I am left aghast.

- - - Updated - - -


so a spender which deals 1/3 worth of damage of a single TV is a skillshot now?
As for the healing part - really? Is this some kind of joke?

I don't think Divine Storm's healing is a "joke" so much as a "perk." Whirlwind doesn't heal when you use it, and Divine Storm healing isn't exactly "critical" enough to matter. It's more flavor, and there's definitely room for flavor perks in the "filler" traits our weapons have. Certainly more interesting than 1 more rank of 6% crit to Crusader Strike. It's not necessary to debate whether every trait is exciting or not, as it's clearly intended that some are filler. Some filler is just "better." Even Unbreakable Will is more interesting filler.

Have you had a chance to test the new Judgment system? Now that it lasts 8 seconds and cleaves, it works pretty well. The "max" of 5 Holy Power doesn't come into play as much as it did before, it acts more as a bonus than as "you MUST build to 5." When Judgment only lasted 6 seconds it was mandatory to build to 5 before Judging, but with the new duration it isn't (and honestly isn't advisable to delay Judgment). You could probably argue that the pointless gating of Judgment is unnecessary by the changes, but it's easy to argue that about any damage buff system which is why Blizzard ignores such arguments.

Overall the feel is pretty good on beta for basic combat. The feel is not good for moving around and healing (healing is mainly in need of some kind of instant heal; honestly I would just advocate making LoH 2 min CD and call it a day).

[Temna]

And this is why I like you Storm, good conversations and back and forth. Though really? Chainsaws? This is supposed to be angry mob inciting not zombies.
@ruiizu thats more or less the impression I got on the ptr as well in terms of combat (would be better if beta but alas ;. Its a good foundation for some more development, though I do question still the value of Divine Storm but thats always going to be a lingering thought.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I don't think Divine Storm's healing is a "joke" so much as a "perk."

seeing as how reghaime calls artifact-enhanced DS a "skillshot", I am inclined to agree it's not a joke indeed. It's farce at this point.

It's not necessary to debate whether every trait is exciting or not, as it's clearly intended that some are filler. Some filler is just "better." Even Unbreakable Will is more interesting filler.

Oh but it is.

Exciting traits?
AtoA, WoA, that's all.
While should be more, if even slightly exciting like UW.
Greater design, just as usual.
It should've been telegraphed to blind retarded devs that are in charge of Ret design.
Long time ago.

You could probably argue that the pointless gating of Judgment is unnecessary by the changes, but it's easy to argue that about any damage buff system which is why Blizzard ignores such arguments.

It's pointless to tuck gating system such as this fethwipe of a carboncopy of a different mechanic ontop of our greater combopoints.

Overall the feel is pretty good on beta for basic combat. The feel is not good for moving around and healing (healing is mainly in need of some kind of instant heal; honestly I would just advocate making LoH 2 min CD and call it a day).

so mobility is beyond goddamn fucking awful
SoV is a no good "defensive" vulnerable to dispels and absorbs for shit
GBlessings are, well, GBlessings
several talents are unviable or borderline unusable or out of place(Equalolity, Crusade, We-want-Ret-to-counter-Mages-Aura, etc etc)
No healing besides FoL
Incredibly large manacosts (HoH, FoL)
I could number these on and on
but..
the feel is pretty good?

- - - Updated - - -

And this is why I like you Storm, good conversations and back and forth.

stop it, you

Though really? Chainsaws? This is supposed to be angry mob inciting not zombies.

Yes.
~_~
Imma be an evil demonic Light-turned proctologyst from Hell with those chainsaws

[Teleros]

Exciting traits?
AtoA, WoA, that's all.

Echo could be made quite interesting, but as it is, an extra 42% / 22.5% weapon damage... meh.

Divine Tempest isn't bad as far as "interesting" goes IMHO though. Only problem is this also includes "pull extra mobs" (obvious), "minimal usefulness" (can't hit things twice) and "puny damage" (obvious).

Meh.

[Vpuh]

I don't think Divine Storm's healing is a "joke" so much as a "perk." Whirlwind doesn't heal when you use it, and Divine Storm healing isn't exactly "critical" enough to matter. It's more flavor, and there's definitely room for flavor perks in the "filler" traits our weapons have. Certainly more interesting than 1 more rank of 6% crit to Crusader Strike. It's not necessary to debate whether every trait is exciting or not, as it's clearly intended that some are filler. Some filler is just "better." Even Unbreakable Will is more interesting filler.

Speaking of traits and how Ashbringer will solve our problems(solve it?), why ret have 6 defensive filler traits,more than anyone else(enhs have only 2)?

[Celebhil]

I'm confused why we need artifact traits to reduce the CD of shield of vengeance; shouldnt the trait do something a bit more interesting to the ability?

[Deleted]

I'm confused why we need artifact traits to reduce the CD of shield of vengeance; shouldnt the trait do something a bit more interesting to the ability?

Story of all traits except Ashes to ashes.

[Celebhil]

for example....extra crit to crusader strike; is there some sort of synergy thats supposed to happen when we crit with crusader strike? or is it some wonky measure to justify baseline crusader strike hitting like a wet noodle "oh but it can crit more often".

[Aeluron Lightsong]

All I can think of for Echo of Highlord is basically have a Golden version of Tiron mimicking your attacks whatever you do for a certain amount. Not totally gameplay changing but I made it fit the name of the trait :-(

[Morally Grey Storm]

Echo could be made quite interesting, but as it is, an extra 42% / 22.5% weapon damage... meh.

Divine Tempest isn't bad as far as "interesting" goes IMHO though. Only problem is this also includes "pull extra mobs" (obvious), "minimal usefulness" (can't hit things twice) and "puny damage" (obvious).

Meh.

speaking of this very finely tuned and carefully implemented EotH: why it doesn't mimick WoG and JV aswell?
Because reasons?

- - - Updated - - -

for example....extra crit to crusader strike; is there some sort of synergy thats supposed to happen when we crit with crusader strike? or is it some wonky measure to justify baseline crusader strike hitting like a wet noodle "oh but it can crit more often".

you see Celebhil, when you - Retributions development, you must of have lowered imagination with negative IQ for fear of too much stronger and happy Ret

[Celebhil]

Mechanically its not even as useful as old hand of light, aesthetically dull. Even modifying it to instead be a literal "blade of light" would be better.

As for the tempest- it doesn't seem to be all that significant; how many extra mobs can one actually hit with this? and considering we're not going to necessarily use divine storm frequently unless its cleave time; the healing perk isn't a wow factor due to lack of frequency. Maybe if it were transferred to be more regularly part of the rotation like how uther's radiance spell in hots is a frequent source of both his damage and healing output, it could resolve our lack of self healing.

Radiance: whenever the paladin uses a holy power consumer, he emits a wave of light (a line attack) that deals X damage to each target hit and heals up to 5 players for Y.

visually, instead of some dinky swirl of hammers flying away from us, bump up the visual oomph of divine storm and had a "holy light" visual for the cleaving wave.