How do you catch up?

[Pua]

I want to get on board with the idea of PvP gear levelling out so that new players don’t get smashed up, so I generally support the character templates and item level smoothing. But the comment about gear adding 0.1% power per ten item levels (or whatever it is) has me worried, in a world where higher ranked players and raiders will get that advantage. I suppose my question is this:

How does a player catch up if they’re not competitive?

I play a bit of PvP, but I’m not especially competitive. At the moment, I accept that getting smashed up early on sucks but I will at least catch up once I’m Conquest geared (assuming I’m motivated enough to go do it). With the new system, it seems like the early starters who get the rated gear are going to end up out of reach entirely. As a casual player who likely won’t earn a rating of any kind, am I stuck between the options of playing other content to get better gear and hoping for Titanforged to drop from PvP?

If so, I’ll simply opt out altogether.

I’m not in beta, so could use some advice on the subject. This isn’t an “IMMA QUIT” issue, it’ll just mean I skip out on PvP altogether if rated players will essentially be out of reach unless I play more competitive than I want to. Hell, even if I went off and raided I’d still be behind on Honour talents and be at a disadvantage that way.

This just doesn’t look especially well thought through on the development end.

Rather than screwing new players at the beginning of the grind, they’ll get screwed at the end.

Is that the design intent?

[Rascal Bob]

I'm not on the beta but as I understand it is that the difference between gear is minimal. A whopping 1% difference per 10 ilvls(has this changed?). I'm more worried about the randomness since I got 4 leg pieces in a row the other day when I was gearing my warrior,I don't like lootboxes. RNG doesn't love me that much *sadface*

[Pua]

A whopping 1% difference per 10 ilvls(has this changed?).

That's the same, AFAIK, but the context is important. It's easy to say "oh, that's not a lot" until you look at the numbers. A new player in Warlords, at level cap, will be in gear around 610 before starting dungeons/LFR/PvP. After two tiers, and without Legion's Titanforging and other randomized loot, players are running around in gear at the 730 and up mark.

That's a 12% difference, in two tiers, and with no PvP related way to catch up.

It seems to me that Mythic raiders are going to wreck battlegrounds with minimal fuss.

[rda]

I want to get on board with the idea of PvP gear levelling out so that new players don’t get smashed up, so I generally support the character templates and item level smoothing. But the comment about gear adding 0.1% power per ten item levels (or whatever it is) has me worried, in a world where higher ranked players and raiders will get that advantage. I suppose my question is this:

How does a player catch up if they’re not competitive?

I play a bit of PvP, but I’m not especially competitive. At the moment, I accept that getting smashed up early on sucks but I will at least catch up once I’m Conquest geared (assuming I’m motivated enough to go do it). With the new system, it seems like the early starters who get the rated gear are going to end up out of reach entirely. As a casual player who likely won’t earn a rating of any kind, am I stuck between the options of playing other content to get better gear and hoping for Titanforged to drop from PvP?

If so, I’ll simply opt out altogether.

I’m not in beta, so could use some advice on the subject. This isn’t an “IMMA QUIT” issue, it’ll just mean I skip out on PvP altogether if rated players will essentially be out of reach unless I play more competitive than I want to. Hell, even if I went off and raided I’d still be behind on Honour talents and be at a disadvantage that way.

This just doesn’t look especially well thought through on the development end.

Rather than screwing new players at the beginning of the grind, they’ll get screwed at the end.

Is that the design intent?

The answer to "how does a player catch up if they're not competitive" is "you can't". Yes, it's plain as that. You improve your gear for PVP by (a) running heroic / mythic raids (that's PVE), (b) trying to be a glad (that's by design works only for 0.5%).

The design intent is... I don't know what it is other than to keep you grinding and give you reasons to do ever-higher raids and even same-difficulty raids, hoping for a big titanforged increase.

[Rascal Bob]

That's the same, AFAIK, but the context is important. It's easy to say "oh, that's not a lot" until you look at the numbers. A new player in Warlords, at level cap, will be in gear around 610 before starting dungeons/LFR/PvP. After two tiers, and without Legion's Titanforging and other randomized loot, players are running around in gear at the 730 and up mark.

That's a 12% difference, in two tiers, and with no PvP related way to catch up.

It seems to me that Mythic raiders are going to wreck battlegrounds with minimal fuss.

But isn't that better then right now? You still do bg's for gearing but this time it's with a ~12% power difference, I'll take that over the 100% you have in WoD any day. There never was a solid catch up mechanic, if you join mid expansion or decide to gear an alt then your PvP experience will be really bad for the first 50 bg's (more or less, depends on RNG) Or you could do some 2's for easy gear with a friend.

[Pua]

But isn't that better then right now? You still do bg's for gearing but this time it's with a ~12% power difference, I'll take that over the 100% you have in WoD any day. There never was a solid catch up mechanic, if you join mid expansion or decide to gear an alt then your PvP experience will be really bad for the first 50 bg's (more or less, depends on RNG) Or you could do some 2's for easy gear with a friend.

That's kind of my point... You do 50 battlegrounds that suck, but then you largely catch up as you get your Honour and then (more importantly) Conquest gear. There's then no disparity in gear at that point, it just takes time. This system, as @rda suggests, essentially just leaves you behind with no means of catching up.

For me as a player, that's substantially worse.

To fix it, the'd have to equalize all gear from PvP (save Titanforged, which is another shitty random system) and cap out any gear that's better than it.

It's just not very sophisticated.

[wombats23]

That's kind of my point... You do 50 battlegrounds that suck, but then you largely catch up as you get your Honour and then (more importantly) Conquest gear. There's then no disparity in gear at that point, it just takes time. This system, as @rda suggests, essentially just leaves you behind with no means of catching up.

For me as a player, that's substantially worse.

To fix it, the'd have to equalize all gear from PvP (save Titanforged, which is another shitty random system) and cap out any gear that's better than it.

It's just not very sophisticated.

who god damn cares if there's no catch up system when you are at most 12% weaker than the absolute most geared players?

so what, i have to put some time in to my character in an rpg?! that's a shocker.

there are definite flaws with legion's system (prestige makes you start completely over, titanforged = rng, lootbox = rng), but the lack of catch up is not a big deal when you are, again, at most 12% behind the MOST geared players. at a 12% difference, a coordinated premade group of 5 (+ 5 randoms) can likely beat 10 uncoordinated players. that is not the case today in wod (i.e. 5 fresh level 100 boosted chars vs 10 740 ilvl chars).

seriously, those 50 bgs that suck don't just suck, they're miserable. they're an absolute time sink (i truly don't blame people for botting bg's. toxic environment + a huge disparity in ilvls = shit experience). not only that, but you're a detriment to your team. a clicker that's 740 ilvl can probably offer more to his team, if only to soak up twice as much damage as you, a fresh 100. unless you're a rogue and you wanna just sap people randomly, you're contributing next to nothing to your team.

i don't mind not having an immediately catch up mechanic. it makes me feel less bad for having multiple alts. and at a mere 12% difference? i can live with that.

[Rascal Bob]

That's kind of my point... You do 50 battlegrounds that suck, but then you largely catch up as you get your Honour and then (more importantly) Conquest gear. There's then no disparity in gear at that point, it just takes time. This system, as @rda suggests, essentially just leaves you behind with no means of catching up.

For me as a player, that's substantially worse.

To fix it, the'd have to equalize all gear from PvP (save Titanforged, which is another shitty random system) and cap out any gear that's better than it.

It's just not very sophisticated.

It's a really small percentage, that will not turn you suddenly into a pvp god. Now a geared vs under geared team is a win on most maps even if the geared team does nothing but score KB's. The new system changes that. Now the gear that makes you maybe 5% stronger(I'm stretching it here) is gated behind a rating requirement or high end PvE content.

Last time I checked it was like this:
bg's/skirm equals hc dungeon gear.
rated pvp 1700+ equals raid gear.
Gladiator equals mythic gear.

The last gate is a bit much maybe, the fact is that If I were to face off against gladiators in 2's or 3's the chances are that I'll lose regardless of gear.
I'll have to be really lucky to beat players whom are that skilled. I don't think I'll have a problem with most of the mythic players unless they are as good in PvP as me.

A mythic or gladiator player invests a lot of time into the game, they can have that 1-3% edge over me.

I think that the only problem is that some might feel compelled to do both or the prestige system which doesn't allow you to have all the pvp talents from the start(could have changed.)

[rda]

But isn't that better then right now? You still do bg's for gearing but this time it's with a ~12% power difference, I'll take that over the 100% you have in WoD any day. There never was a solid catch up mechanic, if you join mid expansion or decide to gear an alt then your PvP experience will be really bad for the first 50 bg's (more or less, depends on RNG) Or you could do some 2's for easy gear with a friend.

(OMG.)

There's no 100% in WoD. In WoD, once you get honor gear - and it takes *a couple of hours* to get - the difference is 10%.

This is talked about in every damn thread.

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who god damn cares if there's no catch up system when you are at most 12% weaker than the absolute most geared players?

For perspective, that "just" is more than the difference between full honor and full conquest. If you are OK with that difference, sure, no issues.

(It's a big difference. Very noticeable.)

[wombats23]

(OMG.)

There's no 100% in WoD. In WoD, once you get honor gear - and that takes *a couple of hours* to get - the difference is 10%.

This is talked about in every damn thread.

it's not just a couple of hours. it's a couple of hours where you're contributing SIGNIFICANTLY less to your team than someone who was only 12% weaker would.

seriously. you ever queue up for a random bg, and it's a bg where there's only 1 healer per team? oh, and as fate would have it, your healer is the fresh 100, while the only team is a full honor geared healer. you already lost. nothing interesting about it. that enemy healer can roll his face just spamming random aoe moves and he'd still contribute more than 4 times your healer (who's could be a pvp god for all i care, he'll still get targetted via bg frames and death gripped into stuns/silence into death, or a sub rogue will just dance and kill you with a dfa crit).

and if it's not 100% what is it? are you seriously just ignoring the fact that there is, undoubtedly, a time where you as a fresh 100 are building up to your honor gear? you're telling me that just because honor gear is attainable in a few hours, it might as well not exist?

but oh no, a 12% difference. that's a god damn travesty. it's impossible to overcome by skill. oh what's that? your character can only over come that gap over time like you'd expect from a traditional rpg? that's just stupid.

For perspective, that "just" is more than the difference between full honor and full conquest. If you are OK with that difference, sure, no issues.

(It's a big difference. Very noticeable.)

wtf do you consider the gap between fresh 100 and fully honor geared to be then?



at it's core, WoW is an rpg. time rightfully deserves to be a factor in and rpg. it's what makes the payoff more satisfying. if i wanted a game with no time element, i'd play dota or overwatch.

[rda]

it's not just a couple of hours. it's a couple of hours where you're contributing SIGNIFICANTLY less to your team than someone who was only 12% weaker would.

If it is such a big problem, just have ilvl boost up to that of honor gear, instead of below it. Takes two minutes of dev time and solves this "issue" without creating new ones.

but oh no, a 12% difference. that's a god damn travesty. it's impossible to overcome by skill. oh what's that? your character can only over come that gap over time like you'd expect from a traditional rpg? that's just stupid.

Do you PVP? Try going as full honor against full conquest. You'll get your ass handed to you in no time.

Yes, it's a big difference, so big, it's nearly impossible to overcome by skill. Or, rather, it takes like 1000 MMR difference to overcome, maybe more. Go figure.

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And, like I said, to "overcome" that gap, you have to either do heroic / mythic raids (do PVE to become better in PVP) or try to be a glad (can't succeed by design, that's for 0.5% due to how ratings work).

You say it's RPG and you get rewarded for spending time? Surprise, not anymore. It's MoP and WoD where you were rewarded for spending time - via conquest. In Legion, the rewards for spending time are not enough to close the gap between you and others.

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wtf do you consider the gap between fresh 100 and fully honor geared to be then?

The gap between fresh 100 and honor geared is irrelevant because it disappears after several hours. But, as I said, if it's such a big issue, there are plenty of ways to solve it forever - easily.

[Rascal Bob]

(OMG.)

There's no 100% in WoD. In WoD, once you get honor gear - and that takes *a couple of hours* to get - the difference is 10%.

This is talked about in every damn thread.

If you get carried by a team of 4 and win everything then it might be a couple of hours, otherwise you'll do bg's for a bit more then just a couple of hours.

I don't really like the feeling I get on a new char when I'm pretty damn useless and burden my team and that a shit ton of games in a row. It forces you to do Ashran which honestly wasn't all that bad when you could get full honor gear in a couple of hours.

In legion HC dungeon will give you 825 ilvl items while the top of the line PvP and PvE gear is ilvl 880. So this means that it´s a 5.5% difference in power, or at least that should be the case. Almost half of the difference between honor and conquest on live. Again I'm more concerned about the randomness of legendary's and lootboxes.

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If it is such a big problem, just have ilvl boost up to that of honor gear, instead of below it. Takes two minutes of dev time and solves this "issue" without creating new ones.



Do you PVP? Try going as full honor against full conquest. You'll get your ass handed to you in no time.

Yes, it's a big difference, so big, it's nearly impossible to overcome by skill. Or, rather, it takes like 1000 MMR difference to overcome, maybe more. Go figure.

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And, like I said, to "overcome" that gap, you have to either do heroic / mythic raids (do PVE to become better in PVP) or try to be a glad (can't succeed by design, that's for 0.5% due to how ratings work).

You say it's RPG and you get rewarded for spending time? Surprise, not anymore. It's MoP and WoD where you were rewarded for spending time - via conquest. In Legion, the rewards for spending time are not enough to close the gap between you and others.

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The gap between fresh 100 and honor geared is irrelevant because it disappears after several hours. But, as I said, if it's such a big issue, there are plenty of ways to solve it forever - easily.

Why would you encounter someone with full gladiator gear at low rating? What are the chances of encountering a gladiator in arena's? You could run into some PvE players but you should be better at the part of the game that you focus on then the average PvE player.

[rda]

Why would you encounter someone with full gladiator gear at low rating? What are the chances of encountering a gladiator in arena's? You could run into some PvE players but you should be better at the part of the game that you focus on then the average PvE player.

Glads will be at high not low ratings by definition, obviously. The point is that while in WoD you'd be doing PVP, that'd be giving you conquest and you'd be decreasing the gap between you and others who are geared better than you (pretty quickly, too), in Legion in order to try and reduce the gap you'd have to either do raids or try to be a glad.

If you choose the latter option, you will face people who are doing raids. Many of them will be worse than you are, but they will compensate for that by having better gear. (And the longer you don't touch glad ratings, the bigger the gear gap between you and raiders will get, raiders will be able to get more and more clueless and still stay even with you.)

[Rascal Bob]

Btw I'm not saying that the system doesn't have any flaws. I'm only trying to say that it's a lot better then how it is currently. Everyone who is semi serious at PvP should be able to reach the 1700 mark which gives you ilvl 650 gear vs the 680 of gladiators.

You also make it seem like Mythic is no big deal and a lot of players run around in mythic gear. at the start of this month about 2030 guilds have downed archimonde on mythic. lets say they have a 25 player roster then that's 50750 players. I don't know the latest sub numbers but that seems to be no more then 2% of the player base. Only 4 times as much as we have gladiators, I know that this is not by design like gladiators and that rating gate is something that could be looked at and lowered to maybe 2.4k+ or whatever.

[wombats23]

And, like I said, to "overcome" that gap, you have to either do heroic / mythic raids (do PVE to become better in PVP) or try to be a glad (can't succeed by design, that's for 0.5% due to how ratings work).

You say it's RPG and you get rewarded for spending time? Surprise, not anymore. It's MoP and WoD where you were rewarded for spending time - via conquest. In Legion, the rewards for spending time are not enough to close the gap between you and others.

The gap between fresh 100 and honor geared is irrelevant because it disappears after several hours. But, as I said, if it's such a big issue, there are plenty of ways to solve it forever - easily.

are we reading the same things from blizzard?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/201...-pvp-5-23-2016

In Legion, when players win a Battleground, Skirmish, Arena, or Rated Battleground, they have a chance to receive a piece of gear directly. Furthermore, your first few victories per week in each rated bracket will reward a guaranteed piece of gear, which has its item level increased based on your rating in the bracket.

a character that has been playing for 2 months will have 8 weeks of [near] guaranteed gear from wins.

that character is an investment of 8 weeks, it (rightfully) will be stronger than a fresh 110. a fresh 110 isn't SOL. it's at most 12% weaker, significantly "fairer" than what today's fresh 100s have to face. the fresh 110 will have guaranteed gear from wins every week, but also a chance at gear every win, regardless of it's a new week or not (read: potential catch up)

no, there is no easy-mode catch up mechanic as it is now. and that's good in an rpg. characters are heroes, they're actively contributing to azeroth, and in return they get (well-)deserved power boosts. i SHOULD feel like my heroic deeds as a veteran 110 resulted in me being more powerful than a newly minted level 110, just not to the extent of what it is currently (full conq vs fresh 100).

finally, if that gap between a fresh 100 and full honor geared people was irrelevant, we wouldn't have a rampant problem of people botting as fresh 100s to skip the whole process of playing a fresh 100. it's not fun being a fresh 100 among full honor geared players. if it was, people would.. you know.. play the game. besides, who are you to consider the fresh 100 experience irrelevant? you realize that blizzard has a duty to new players right? if that first experience in pvp is complete horse shit (which it currently is for a fresh 100), they're likely to unsub.

to solve the problem, you're asking to eliminate the time element to rpgs. at that point, you might as well just play dota, where every player starts at an equal footing every game. (not to diss dota, i love that game.)

Btw I'm not saying that the system doesn't have any flaws. I'm only trying to say that it's a lot better then how it is currently. Everyone who is semi serious at PvP should be able to reach the 1700 mark which gives you ilvl 650 gear vs the 680 of gladiators.

agreed!

[rda]

In legion HC dungeon will give you 825 ilvl items while the top of the line PvP and PvE gear is ilvl 880. So this means that it´s a 5.5% difference in power, or at least that should be the case. Almost half of the difference between honor and conquest on live. Again I'm more concerned about the randomness of legendary's and lootboxes.

Yes, 5.5% isn't a bad number, although (a) getting to the same 5.5% in WoD is pretty easy - that's basically "get trinket, 2p and weapons", which takes something like a month of getting your cap, and (b) it's not all there is in Legion, there're also PVP talents and artifact power, with either giving you *more* than 10% - you might not feel it on main if you play it all the time, but you will feel it on alts.

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are we reading the same things from blizzard?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/201...-pvp-5-23-2016

Yes, we are reading the same thing.

It says right there that the gear you get from PVP will depend on your rating. That creates the gap that you can't really cross. Look at the ilvls on the beta.

"a character that has been playing for 2 months will have 8 weeks of [near] guaranteed gear from wins." --- Yes, sure. The problem is ilvls. By playing 8 weeks of random BGs, you will be full "heroic" meaning the ilvl of heroic instances. That's nothing. You'd have to get relatively high just to get ilvl equivalent to normal (former flex) raids. Keep in mind that the rating system is specifically designed so that every next rating level contains less people, so the number of people who will get PVP gear equivalent to normal raids is already like maybe 15% of all who PVP.

Sum total, you'll just gear in raids. *LFR* will give 90% of PVPers better gear than they will ever be able to get via PVP.

"to solve the problem, you're asking to eliminate the time element to rpgs." --- No, conquest gear would still stay.

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Btw I'm not saying that the system doesn't have any flaws. I'm only trying to say that it's a lot better then how it is currently. Everyone who is semi serious at PvP should be able to reach the 1700 mark which gives you ilvl 650 gear vs the 680 of gladiators.

I completely disagree it's better than it is now, it's worse and I explained why several times (not only in this thread).

The comparison between 650 and 680 that you cite is imaginary, nothing like that "getting to 1700 because I am a serious PVPer to get normal raid-ilvl gear" will happen. Everybody will just gear in raids, because it's much easier. Mark my words, rated PVP will take a big dive in Legion (you will see that from lowered glad rating if nothing else) and they will likely revert some of the changes right after the very first season, possibly even before that.

[Rascal Bob]

Yes, 5.5% isn't a bad number, although (a) getting to the same 5.5% in WoD is pretty easy - that's basically "get trinket, 2p and weapons", which takes something like a month of getting your cap, and (b) it's not all there is in Legion, there're also PVP talents and artifact power, with either giving you *more* than 10% - you might not feel it on main if you play it all the time, but you will feel it on alts.

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Yes, we are reading the same thing.

It says right there that the gear you get from PVP will depend on your rating. That creates the gap that you can't really cross. Look at the ilvls on the beta.

"a character that has been playing for 2 months will have 8 weeks of [near] guaranteed gear from wins." --- Yes, sure. The problem is ilvls. By playing 8 weeks of random BGs, you will be full "heroic" meaning the ilvl of heroic instances. That's nothing. You'd have to get relatively high just to get ilvl equivalent to normal (former flex) raids. Keep in mind that the rating system is specifically designed so that every next rating level contains less people, so the number of people who will get PVP gear equivalent to normal raids is already like maybe 15% of all who PVP.

Sum total, you'll just gear in raids. *LFR* will give 90% of PVPers better gear than they will ever be able to get via PVP.

"to solve the problem, you're asking to eliminate the time element to rpgs." --- No, conquest gear would still stay.

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I completely disagree it's better than it is now, it's worse and I explained why several times (not only in this thread).

The comparison between 650 and 680 that you cite is imaginary, nothing like that "getting to 1700 because I am a serious PVPer" would happen. Everybody would just gear in raids, because it's much easier. Mark my words, rated PVP will take a big dive in Legion and they will likely revert some of the changes the very first season.

I was kind of slow on the edit so I'm sorry for that, my lunch break is already over so I should be working

this was my edit:

Mythic is a pretty big deal and not a lot of players run around in mythic gear. At the start of this month about 2030 guilds have downed archimonde on mythic. lets say they have a 25 player roster then that's 50750 players.

I don't know the latest sub numbers but that seems to be no more then 2% of the player base. Only 4 times as much as we have gladiators, I know that this is not by design like gladiators and that rating gate is something that could be looked at and lowered to maybe 2.4k+ or whatever.

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This is where I got my numbers from, like you said it might be wrong.

I do share a concern that some might do both and gain some sort of a advantage early in the season. But otherwise people do PvP to PvP, a group of players who generally don't like RBG's because finding enough players is a hassle don't just start doing raids because it pushes them slightly ahead. Everything below a few % is only gonna matter with equal skill, as long as you out play the other team then you can overcome quite a bit of gear.

If you start complaining at 1.6k rating that gear is withholding you from getting any further then you might want to take some time to rethink your own abilities.

[Pua]

This conversation has largely gone on without me, but it's clear to see who doesn't really PvP and who does.

Anyone that thinks a 10% difference in performance isn't a big deal, doesn't do much in the way of PvP - it's a substantial difference.

But even if it wasn't, that's not really the point. The point I'm making is that there's no way of catching up to high rated players, because no reward will get you there. At the moment, you can simply work to get Conquest and eventually catch up. In Legion, it looks like there's no way to do that without trying to play competitive PvP or doing Heroic/Mythic raiding.

And let's not forget the difference that being a geared Mythic raider will provide. Doing no PvP is going to make you unbeatable should you bother jumping into a battleground for the sake of it.

That surely can't be the design intent, but I'd find it unbelievable if this hadn't already been articulated to the designers.

Incidentally, I'm not arguing that those first 50 battlegrounds are fun. They're not, and they probably chase lots of people away from PvP. But a system that makes it easier to get involved, only to then arbitrarily stop you catching up, is likely to end up being far more resented than what we've got now.

[Rascal Bob]

This conversation has largely gone on without me, but it's clear to see who doesn't really PvP and who does.

Anyone that thinks a 10% difference in performance isn't a big deal, doesn't do much in the way of PvP - it's a substantial difference.

But even if it wasn't, that's not really the point. The point I'm making is that there's no way of catching up to high rated players, because no reward will get you there. At the moment, you can simply work to get Conquest and eventually catch up. In Legion, it looks like there's no way to do that without trying to play competitive PvP or doing Heroic/Mythic raiding.

And let's not forget the difference that being a geared Mythic raider will provide. Doing no PvP is going to make you unbeatable should you bother jumping into a battleground for the sake of it.

That surely can't be the design intent, but I'd find it unbelievable if this hadn't already been articulated to the designers.

Incidentally, I'm not arguing that those first 50 battlegrounds are fun. They're not, and they probably chase lots of people away from PvP. But a system that makes it easier to get involved, only to then arbitrarily stop you catching up, is likely to end up being far more resented than what we've got now.

So who does PvP and who doesn't?

It looks like it will be less then that 10% more like half of it. If you think that this last magic 5% will get you near the higher rated players then its obvious to me who does and doesn't PvP. Btw, the rating is the reward not the gear. Gear is just a means to an end, something you'll need to get there.

You can always test this yourself ofc, ask some 2.4k+ players to wear honor gear and face of in the arena, just so you know I'll be betting on them.

Sure the gear helps it always does, but the other team has the same gear in the arena. Once you've reached 1.7k then you get the better gear so does everyone else. They will have to lose rating in order to be matched against the players without that. We always brag about PvP being harder because its not versus an NPC. It would be embarrassing when a raider were to step into the arena and rolfstomp al over you just because of that 5%. Skill has always mattered more in PvP unless you have ridiculous power differences.

Opinions are opinions. If you don't get my points now then we can better agree to disagree.

Normal bg's can't really be taken seriously nowadays due to the fact that it's a rare occurrence that both teams are on equal grounds, this can be due to a difference in gear or healers or having tanks. I think having a group of players where the difference between best and worst player is <10% is pretty damn good, compared to what we have now. The fights will have meaning, if you employ some proper strategics then you can still win versus a better geared opponent. If you're not geared on live you might just /sit in the corner of the game to watch the match.

Mythic raiding is hard, right now ~2-3% of the player base has a mythic archi kill. They put a lot of effort and time into it, organizing a big group is hard. By thinking/saying that we'll see half the player base* in mythic gear is sort of disrespecting. I think getting gladiator is harder then a mythic kill, but it's far from easy. Something that you can just do if were to put some time into it.

If the design intent is to let people who put far more time and effort into the game then most of us and push themselves to clear mythic get a slight advantage then I'm perfectly fine with that. A seasoned PvP'er will and should beat a dragonslayer who doesn't do pvp all that much.

Again if you think you're unbeatable because of this magic 5% then you really need to think that over. If you manage your dr's, positioning, burst windows and cc chains better then your opponent then that 5% isn't gonna do you all that much.

And it's not the first 50 bg's, If all you want is score some killing blows and brag in the chat how your gear puts you well above the rest in the charts then I won't say a thing. I rather play a good match, you know with some excitement about who will end up on top.

*I know you didn't say it but you're implying that chances are pretty solid that you'll run into them pretty often, which isn't the case.

[rda]

*I know you didn't say it but you're implying that chances are pretty solid that you'll run into them pretty often, which isn't the case.

I am neither saying nor implying that. The concern is not by far the simplistic "mythic raiders are going to dominate in terms of gear", it's this:

(1) There's a new gear discrepancy.

It's no longer like in MoP / WoD in that, yes, "there's no PVP gear, there's just gear", and what it means is that if you don't raid, you have worse gear. For PVP.

(2) The new gear discrepancy is significant at all ratings.

If you are at 2000, you will be losing to players who are worse than you but have mythic gear. Sure, there's only a few of them, but you are a pretty rare bird as well, these two factors compensate, there are way less glads than there are mythic raiders. You won't be losing all your matches to gear, but, chances are, you will be losing a significant amount - and with raiding being by and large easier in terms of getting gear than PVP (yes, I am using the word 'easier' wrt mythic raiding, because we are comparing it to getting a glad, and getting a glad is more difficult *by design*), most of your battles might be that way.

If you are at 1800, you will be losing to players who are worse than you but have heroic gear. Same things apply, you won't be losing all your matches to gear, but, chances are, you will be losing a significant amount.

Etc, etc, if you are at 1500, you will be losing to players who are worse than you but have LFR gear.

That's all there is to it. You will be forced to PVE in order to not be handicapped in PVP. If you will try to PVP without doing raids, you will be several hundred MMR lower than you would have been under the old model, and the MMR difference will increase over time, not decrease. Because your gear won't improve, but gear of those of your opponents who raid will and they will push you as well as other fellows who refuse to raid down.

And if you are wondering about the very top, it's going to be like this: raiders will carry people who are selling glad spots in their mythic raids, and people selling glad spots will carry raiders to glads, that way both will have more gear for their raids / PVP than all others. It was like that already multiple times before when PVP was ruled by legendaries (Shadowmorne, etc). It wasn't pretty.