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  1. #61
    Bloodsail Admiral vastx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teflonsavior View Post
    Nationalism is stupid and takes a while to die. All countries in Europe are already linked deeply through economy but further integration is good. Like, why wouldn't it be? Nationalist countries are a medieval concept. People gotta wake up, seriously. Being proud of a country when countries are lines on a map? I would rather be proud of helping other people. You know, even those with different skin tones and cultures.
    The original 13 colonies would have made a go at it here in America, more or less alone. They tried for a short time. But realized they needed each other. And our system worked well for us. Our only major failure, was that we never addressed the slave question and left it for a future generation to deal with.

    I think a lot of people, perhaps you, have this thought that a step towards unification is a step towards progress. And all progress is positive. I don't agree. Progress for the sake of progress is like spinning the bottle and deciding to move to where that bottle stops. It's not really progressive, and can often be regressive. Because eventually you start ignoring other factors if your main goal is simply moving forward and attempting the new.

  2. #62
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Oktoberfest View Post
    The USA is NOTHING like Europe.
    The US was formed by the same people.
    Europe like you said is thousands of years of development with unique cultures, languages and countries.
    Yes it was formed by the English, the Germans, the Italians, the French, the Irish...
    - Oh wait...
    Last edited by mmocfd561176b9; 2016-06-27 at 09:50 AM.

  3. #63
    The Insane Revi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teflonsavior View Post
    Nationalism is stupid and takes a while to die. All countries in Europe are already linked deeply through economy but further integration is good. Like, why wouldn't it be? Nationalist countries are a medieval concept. People gotta wake up, seriously. Being proud of a country when countries are lines on a map? I would rather be proud of helping other people. You know, even those with different skin tones and cultures.
    When you say nationalism, do you mean peoples wish to remain a sovereign nation rather than be under a foreign power?

  4. #64
    Bloodsail Admiral Cien's Avatar
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    This is worrying news, while I was a remainer and voted to stay, this kind of news makes me feel a little better about leaving. Would be nice to leave on good terms, but just like the campaign, there are spiteful butthurt people on both sides who are too proud to cooperate amicably. lets hope we can exist on good terms <3

  5. #65
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    Praise be that we got out while we could.

    You European's should be thinking about doing the same before your Union screws you over.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Revi View Post
    When you say nationalism, do you mean peoples wish to remain a sovereign nation rather than be under a foreign power?
    They are under a foreign power right now, and see it as their chance to start being more independent.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Coins View Post
    People are instantly seeing "unification" as meaning that local governance will go away.

    You can have strong local government and an overarching unified government.

    In fact it's entirely possible to unify the EU further while also giving smaller and more local governments more power over their own turf. The two are not at odds with each other.
    Well, this is false, but if you can provide historical evidence of a society as you describe it, I'm willing to change my mind.

    Stronger "federal" government always means weaker local government. People less able to affect change in their leadership, leaders more able to act on corrupt incentives without fear of repercussions.

    But please, if you can give me an example of the opposite occurring, I'd love to learn something new today.

  8. #68
    only mad people promote nationalism, nationalism is what drived Europe to start the 2 world wars where millions died. I am in favor of a united Europe that promotes the culture of the european people ... We all know how Europe looked and did when it was fragmented (wars wars wars) ... i believe in unity is power

    The future of the human race is not borders ,fragmentation, nationalism, racism or religion ... to evolve and look to the futures we must leave behind the tribal barbaric mind ... as a great comedian said "we are just apes with machine guns" ... we have to pass that
    Last edited by edw; 2016-06-27 at 11:00 AM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Berthier View Post
    thats the right direction look at the USA this is wonderful i hope one day we can be ONE!
    either you are trolling or just dumb
    this is the quickest way to civil warS..
    Also what do you think its gonna happen to women and gays 20/30 years from now if this demographic cultural and religious shift keeps up? let alone putting it in full throttle?

  10. #70
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelinrah View Post
    This will totally end well. Asking people to give up self governance always goes over well.
    Yeah, totally hasn't worked for the United States of America...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Well, it is exactly what people have done. Yugoslavia split up in a bitter war into several small countries. Tchechoslovakia split up. Baltic states splitting from Russland. Possibly soon Scottland and Ireland from the UK.

    Germany used to be several small states like Prussia or the Saxons and Hessen, with their own armies fighting each other. They probably thought like you did when the idea of a unified Germany was breached? Did that seem like better times? If the answer is yes, then I suppose the USA would be better off too as 51 separate states....

    When is a country a country and when is splintering the better solution
    It's usually an issue of local accountability. When the central government forget the regions. The EU is actually set up in a way that splits countries in to regions to try to avoid that.

  11. #71
    wow this is amazing

    germany lost the war but wins the continent. how stupid are the people of europe?

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    So old enough to die for your country, old enough to smoke, but not old enough to participate in politics that can and will affect your life?
    People are a wreck until 25. They can barely be trusted to balance their own budget, much less help make a decision that doesn't end up screwing everyone because 'muh feels'.
    You're not to think you are anything special. You're not to think you are as good as we are. You're not to think you are smarter than we are. You're not to convince yourself that you are better than we are. You're not to think you know more than we do. You're not to think you are more important than we are. You're not to think you are good at anything. You're not to laugh at us. You're not to think anyone cares about you. You're not to think you can teach us anything.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Yeah, totally hasn't worked for the United States of America...
    Yes, it worked for freshly formed states that didn't have 1,000+ years of culture and identity behind them.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Coins View Post
    Culture doesn't vanish because of governmental unification.
    It means loss of autonomy though.

  15. #75
    As we (British) found out this past week, don't believe everything yous see on the tele. Use some common sense.

  16. #76
    Its not about it vanishing, its about it making it much harder to unify.

  17. #77
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Coins View Post
    Culture doesn't vanish because of governmental unification.
    Euro was an attempt at unification, it has been nothing short of an epic fail.

    French and German call for "solidarity" regarding Greece was nothing but bullshit move to save their own banks. And you want these people to setup a unified government?

    To Germany/France their own businesses and banks will always come first. Everyone else be damned - anything else is just PR.

  18. #78
    I would be in favor of a move to a more unified Europe. And actually give us some influence as a super-power, rather than a divided mess. A united army sounds like a good idea.

    But if we’re going this route, I need one thing. I want to be able to vote, directly, for who is the head of this European Union. Right now we have no vote at all in who rules the EU. We just vote for national parties who then give support to whoever they please. How can we expect the leaders of the EU to keep their eyes on the interests of their citizens, if they are not accountable to them, and have no need to earn their support?

    Not saying it has to become the circus the US elections are. But we’re not going to have a sense of unity, if we do not have a vote.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Coins View Post
    Autonomy on what exactly? Does every EU country need it's own army and all the seperate administrations around it? Just to name an example.

    A unified armed force and security might actually save a ton of money to be invested in other things instead, while having a more efficient armed force with a better sense of direction. One that can actually do more than 30 seperate small forces disagreeing with each other on where to go.
    What about nations like Ireland and Austria who wish to be neutral and not be involved with things like NATO?

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Coins View Post
    It's purely a matter of seperating powers and authority.

    For example you can make local government have full authority over: education, culture, welfare, etc. and federal government's power and authority would be limited to: Security, market regulations, etc.

    More 'localized' governments tend to be really bad at organizing or overseeing security and market regulations, but they tend to perform strong on areas of education, culture, welfare programs, etc. compared to 'larger territory governments'.

    Individual countries getting rid of administrative chaos and excessive spending on individual armies and police / security and instead spending less on a more efficient federal army / police etc. could be highly beneficial for everyone involved. It's also entirely possible for there to be overlap and for in certain cases to have local government have priority in authority over federal government.
    Yayaya, this is what the US has currently. We see the results.

    I asked for a historical example of this working, I guess you meant in la-la land.

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