Do we ever really kill demons?

[Volardelis]

Blizzard stated multiple times through various medias (game, book, etc.) that Outland is only in process of falling apart and into the Nether. It will be in time, but for now, it isn't fully there yet. So no, they didn't forget or retcon that.

Please provide some

- - - Updated - - -

You also got the goblins in Netherstorm building a rocket to explore the twisting nether as well. And like I said, you see the nether astral winds in zones like Nagrand, blades edge, netherstorm and hellfire.

If only really Netherstorm is in the nether, explain why I see properties of the nether in a zone like nagrand?

- - - Updated - - -

not to mention Socrether showing back up in WoD even though he got killed in Netherstorm, an area where kael'thas was using mana forgers to drain the nether dry

[Qualia]

Please provide some

You also got the goblins in Netherstorm building a rocket to explore the twisting nether as well. And like I said, you see the nether astral winds in zones like Nagrand, blades edge, netherstorm and hellfire.

If only really Netherstorm is in the nether, explain why I see properties of the nether in a zone like nagrand?

not to mention Socrether showing back up in WoD even though he got killed in Netherstorm, an area where kael'thas was using mana forgers to drain the nether dry

As I said, it is hovering in between reality / physical universe and the Nether. It is hovering on the wind of the Nether, but it isn't inside the Nether yet (in the process of falling into it). A real life example to make it easier to imagine would be a ship riding on the waves of a sea - it's on a sea, you can see and get to the sea from the ship, you can also attempt to get water from the sea, but the ship itself isn't inside or part of the sea. Outland is in the brink between two dimensions (universe and the Nether) and connected to both, but isn't fully in either of those - that's why you can see both Nether and reality's properties from (or on) Outland. Just because it is connected to the Nether doesn't mean it's *that* much saturated with Nether energies, it need to be inside Nether (or be saturated enough with Nether energies, we don't know how much is "enough").

I'm having dinner so I will just put up some examples for now, you can find more by spending a bit of time Googling about Outland, but anyway - it goes back as far as TBC, where the demons could just come back when they were killed in Outland, see this quest (Banish the demons) description:

You've arrived at the perfect time, friend! We are in need of assistance. In return, you will receive something very rare, which will help us both in the end.

We're not a violent ogre any longer, but the demons nearby threaten to overrun us and the Skyguard. The problem with demons is that, once killed, they come right back in new bodies!

But, if you use this crystal to summon a banishing portal, when they die near it, their essences will be drawn in and banished back from whence they came!

So yeah, the demons can come back unless killed in the Nether - it was established / hinted that far back - otherwise they could just come back in new bodies. They couldn't be killed in Outland, and need to be banished "back from hence they came" (aka Nether), showing that Outland isn't considered part of the Nether yet.

Then we get this part about Illidan summoning Parasitic Shadowfiend:

Illidan summoned a parasitic shadowfiend to him. The creature slithered out of the Twisting Nether and into reality, racing toward the spellcaster who had done the healing.

See the bolded part. The fiend was being summoned out of the Nether and into reality. That means where we fought Illidan, on top of the Black Temple in Outland, is out of the Nether and is part of reality (the Nether exists outside of all realitites).

Then for some more recent examples from Illidan's book, when Illidan casted a spell to send his spirit / soul from Outland to the Nether:

He shaped it, channeling it through the pattern, aiming it toward the chink in the wards he had created. Like water flowing down a ravine, the spell surged through the tiny opening, creating a gap in the fabric of reality that opened out into somewhere else.
<...>
Nothing happened. He allowed his spirit to go with the flow of energy and pass through the opening between worlds and out into the Twisting Nether. It exploded into being around him.

The spell took effect on Outland opening a gap in fabric of reality. It wouldn't be that if Outland is in the Nether and isn't part of reality. Moreover, when he returns after his spirit trip to Argus:

Illidan’s spirit crashed back into his physical form. He caught himself before he could fall, realized that he had been gone for only a heartbeat in this world even if it had felt like an eternity in the Twisting Nether. The Seal of Argus blazed crimson in his hands.

Maybe something else in regards to the Throne of Kil'Jaeden in Outland:

Gul’dan’s absorbed memories now told Illidan this was the place to cast his spell. Here lay a great flaw in the fabric of the universe that was connected to the lair of the Deceiver himself. This night the flow of energies from the Twisting Nether would be at its strongest in years.

There you go, some of examples from both game and book to show that Outland isn't in the Nether. If you weren't asking about that, and were asking about the part that Outland is still degrading and falling into the Nether instead, then look up Archmage Var'goth's quests. I will come back in ~45' to quote the quest text if you still need those by then.

[Volardelis]

The thing with BC is that a lot of lore conflicts with another. That quest in blades edge does conflict with other lore seen throughout outland. Like the goblins in Area 52 building a rocket to explore the twsiting nether, or the creation of the nether drakes, or the sky box for majority of zones in Outland showing the astral winds of the nether (including Blades edge)

And quoting the Illidan novel is just supporting my view that blizzard is retconing outland being in the twisting nether just for the rule of cool. Hell, it wasn't until Alex did his drunk tweet did blizzard actually say demons can only be killed in the twisting nether.

[Qualia]

The thing with BC is that a lot of lore conflicts with another. That quest in blades edge does conflict with other lore seen throughout outland. Like the goblins in Area 52 building a rocket to explore the twsiting nether, or the creation of the nether drakes, or the sky box for majority of zones in Outland showing the astral winds of the nether (including Blades edge)

The BE quest and what you mentioned don't contradict each other, though? See the ship metaphor - while you are on a ship (Outland) riding on the waves of a sea (Nether), you can still see the sea (Nether) or it waves (the Nether winds), you can take a float (Goblin rocket / Drakes), jump off the ship and swim around in the sea (exploring the Nether), water (Nether energies) would flow in the ship and you could gather water if you want. However, you aren't inside / under the sea, and the ship (Outland) isn't filled / saturated with water (Nether energies). Well, in Outland's case, the ship is sinking so eventually it will be fully inside the sea (Nether) but not yet.

The TBC stuffs would only conflicts with each others if the Nether status is a binary check (either you are 100% in the Nether, or you are not). In Outland's case, however, it's hovering in between Nether and reality (physical universe). It's partly here and there, so some of Nether zones' properties apply to it, but not all.

[Samesnotatroll]

The BE quest and what you mentioned don't contradict each other, though? See the ship metaphor - while you are on a ship (Outland) riding on the waves of a sea (Nether), you can still see the sea (Nether) or it waves (the Nether winds), you can take a float (Goblin rocket / Drakes), jump off the ship and swim around in the sea (exploring the Nether), water (Nether energies) would flow in the ship and you could gather water if you want. However, you aren't inside / under the sea, and the ship (Outland) isn't filled / saturated with water (Nether energies). Well, in Outland's case, the ship is sinking so eventually it will be fully inside the sea (Nether) but not yet.

The TBC stuffs would only conflicts with each others if the Nether status is a binary check (either you are 100% in the Nether, or you are not). In Outland's case, however, it's hovering in between Nether and reality (physical universe). It's partly here and there, so some of Nether zones' properties apply to it, but not all.

I don't see any issues in the storyline or the lore. When you're talking about things like leftover planets floating between planes it can be difficult for people to conceptualize it in their mind, there are plenty who will scream it's retcon if they don't understand or like it.

[Mehrunes]

you can but that requires demonic portals... and the dranei do not use that... and because demons killed in outland are not fully killed, so that is garunteed proof then, as illidan did not fully die, nor did magthoridan, so

Or a transdimensional ship like the Tempest Keep. Again, travelling through the Nether is the exact way how they work. Draenei used that plenty of ties. And TBC lore is inconsistent as hell. This is the prime example.

[FelPlague]

Or a transdimensional ship like the Tempest Keep. Again, travelling through the Nether is the exact way how they work. Draenei used that plenty of ties. And TBC lore is inconsistent as hell. This is the prime example.

Well it's plain and simple... the twisting nether is not space. Nor is out land near the twisting nether because draenor is not. And the only different between the two is one blew up and one did not. They are in the exact same place in the universe

- - - Updated - - -

The BE quest and what you mentioned don't contradict each other, though? See the ship metaphor - while you are on a ship (Outland) riding on the waves of a sea (Nether), you can still see the sea (Nether) or it waves (the Nether winds), you can take a float (Goblin rocket / Drakes), jump off the ship and swim around in the sea (exploring the Nether), water (Nether energies) would flow in the ship and you could gather water if you want. However, you aren't inside / under the sea, and the ship (Outland) isn't filled / saturated with water (Nether energies). Well, in Outland's case, the ship is sinking so eventually it will be fully inside the sea (Nether) but not yet.

The TBC stuffs would only conflicts with each others if the Nether status is a binary check (either you are 100% in the Nether, or you are not). In Outland's case, however, it's hovering in between Nether and reality (physical universe). It's partly here and there, so some of Nether zones' properties apply to it, but not all.

But if the twisting nether is near and around out land..m why did they have to use portals to get there. And why did ollidan destroying the portals stop the demons from invading?

[Devidose]

Mal'ganis already returned in 3.0.

True, albeit 3.3.0 was the patch that included those Icecrown quests. Been so long I'd forgotten about them having only done them once.

[Shaqthefat]

its kinda strange, only 2 demon hunters die there, the guy who cant metamorph and explodes because his body cant handle that shit
and in one quest you can choose between sacrificing an ally or sacrificing yourself, if you choose him he does die, but if you choose yourself you dont.
you are basically the only demon hunter who cant die.

i think blizz is fcking their own rules.

Only demon hunters that have more demon then mortal in them had an immortal soul. The guy that couldn't handle the metamorph didn't have enough demon in him to under go the process. The others that can transform have enough demon in them, but not enough to reform in the Twisting Nether

[Eroginous]

Hi,


so demons can not be killed in our realm, only in the twisting nether right?

When do we ever actually go to the twisting nether to kill these demons for good?

Broken shores is just a place, it isnt the twisting nether is it? it is still in our realm.


Also in the broken shore invasion event. Before the end where all those big demons appear and say stuff like 'I HAVE RETURNED'

I get the impression those 3 big demons that speak have been in the game before, is that true?

All of the in-game demons are actual Real Demons that Blizzard has contracted through dark magic to appear in the game. When you kill one demon, it just respawns in another body. It's 2016, that's about the only work an honest demon can get in LA these days.

[Mehrunes]

True, albeit 3.3.0 was the patch that included those Icecrown quests. Been so long I'd forgotten about them having only done them once.

If we're talking about the quests involving Mal'ganis that was also 3.0.

[Qualia]

But if the twisting nether is near and around out land..m why did they have to use portals to get there. And why did ollidan destroying the portals stop the demons from invading?

I'd say that was because Outland isn't in Twisting Nether yet. Outland is (or was) still considered at least part of reality / universe, as shown in the Skyguard quest or Illidan's quotes. Using the ship metaphor in that post you quoted, it'd be like the fishes (demons) can't get into the ship (Outland) unless they go through a hole (portals) in it. While the goblins intended to explore Nether by a rocket flying from Outland, we aren't even sure if travelling back and forth between Outland and the Nether using conventional means would work. After all, assuming the fact that you can fly off Outland into the Nether is true lore-wise (instead of being just a gameplay easter egg of short like the skybox of BT), if you fly too far off, you'd just instantly drop dead.

[FelPlague]

I'd say that was because Outland isn't in Twisting Nether yet. Outland is (or was) still considered at least part of reality / universe, as shown in the Skyguard quest or Illidan's quotes. Using the ship metaphor in that post you quoted, it'd be like the fishes (demons) can't get into the ship (Outland) unless they go through a hole (portals) in it. While the goblins intended to explore Nether by a rocket flying from Outland, we aren't even sure if travelling back and forth between Outland and the Nether using conventional means would work. After all, assuming the fact that you can fly off Outland into the Nether is true lore-wise (instead of being just a gameplay easter egg of short like the skybox of BT), if you fly too far off, you'd just instantly drop dead.

but the question is, how did outland end up in them middleo f the twisting nether? its in the same place, just destroyed from explosions of the portals

[Qualia]

but the question is, how did outland end up in them middleo f the twisting nether? its in the same place, just destroyed from explosions of the portals

The concentrated magical energies of the exploding portals somehow pulled it into / towards the Twisting Nether. I / we don't know how exactly that mechanic works - as in, how powerful the energy concentration must be in order for it to pull something into the Nether (not necessarily to be a magical explosion, seeing Argus seemed to just drifted towards Nether by itself due to Legion's fel energy unless the they set off some explosions there w/o our knowledge), only Blizzard do. Probably some inverse version of what happened to Mar'duum (it was a separated pocket dimension inside the Nether, then the concentrated fel energies somehow brought it to our physical universe and manifested it as a planet).

[awbaker]

Some questions for a lore novice :

1) What did we do to Kil Jaeden (sp?) after we blocked his head from popping out of the sunwell? I feel like its been a media parade for Sargeras and Archimonde but I havent heard KJ mentioned in ages which is why I thought he went bye bye for good. Him and archimonde were the same position under sargeras right?

2) I read a lot of the uproar about blizz dropping the 1 demon thing in a simple tweet and how upset everyone was for it, but have they made efforts to make it work/clarify?

3) Why is this thread so... civil? Almost forgot I was on MMO-champ when I didnt see name calling

<3

[Qualia]

Some questions for a lore novice :

1) What did we do to Kil Jaeden (sp?) after we blocked his head from popping out of the sunwell? I feel like its been a media parade for Sargeras and Archimonde but I havent heard KJ mentioned in ages which is why I thought he went bye bye for good. Him and archimonde were the same position under sargeras right?

We didn't do anything to Kil'Jaeden. He was just pushed back to the Twisting Nether. He was referenced here and there in WoD, and we saw him in Legion beta at Argus, so he is fine. KJ and Archimonde were of the same position; However, as KJ took the role of acting leader for the Legion, I assume he is technically a bit higher than Archimonde in the hierarchy now.

2) I read a lot of the uproar about blizz dropping the 1 demon thing in a simple tweet and how upset everyone was for it, but have they made efforts to make it work/clarify?

Other than the the first tweet, they've mentioned that a few more times. However, for now, every explanations stopped at "Demons' souls are anchored to the Nether" and "There is only a single Twisting Nether across multiverses". There hasn't been any further clarifications if that's what you are looking for. They answered in the Legion Q&A that Legion will address the issue of multiple Legion vs single Legion, so we should be getting more information later.

[steelballfc]

its kinda strange, only 2 demon hunters die there, the guy who cant metamorph and explodes because his body cant handle that shit
and in one quest you can choose between sacrificing an ally or sacrificing yourself, if you choose him he does die, but if you choose yourself you dont.
you are basically the only demon hunter who cant die.

i think blizz is fcking their own rules.

you are the hero
you can't die