Arms Legion Discussion

[Warriorsarri]

Arms is one of the specs that scale the best with their Artifact tree. At least the first 2/3's of it.

[Murlocbait]

I was excited about the idea of Artifacts finally offering secondary progression into the game. But it seems like they're not even trying to make it about any kind of choice, instead they have a clear right way to go about filling out the Artifact while leveling and gearing up for first raid. I guess it's moot since there are no decisions to be made long-term. Everyone will fill out the weapon, probably a second one too. Was hoping that secondary progression would offer opportunities for choices, but guess that's not what they wanted from it.

[Grumpy Old Man]

I was excited about the idea of Artifacts finally offering secondary progression into the game. But it seems like they're not even trying to make it about any kind of choice, instead they have a clear right way to go about filling out the Artifact while leveling and gearing up for first raid. I guess it's moot since there are no decisions to be made long-term. Everyone will fill out the weapon, probably a second one too. Was hoping that secondary progression would offer opportunities for choices, but guess that's not what they wanted from it.

That resembles very much the old (tree-based) talent system.

[Artunias]

I was excited about the idea of Artifacts finally offering secondary progression into the game. But it seems like they're not even trying to make it about any kind of choice, instead they have a clear right way to go about filling out the Artifact while leveling and gearing up for first raid. I guess it's moot since there are no decisions to be made long-term. Everyone will fill out the weapon, probably a second one too. Was hoping that secondary progression would offer opportunities for choices, but guess that's not what they wanted from it.

I think the artifacts are way too powerful and required for even basic functionality of some rotations for them to be gated too long. For Fury you have all three gold traits, focus in chaos, unrivaled strength, and helya's wrath (cooldown alignment, just annoying without it).

For Arms you have Shattered Defenses, Corrupted Blood, Exploit the Weakness, Will of the First King, and Precise Strikes. The gold traits are just powerful, the other three normal traits make it so your rotation more or less works properly.

I get the desire, and I wouldn't mind it if it was done right. But with how much is tied to the artifacts, at least for warriors, I'm glad it's just something that will be mostly completed within 4-6 weeks for one weapon, and maybe another 3-4 weeks after that for a second weapon.

[Deleted]

You must be on something if you think you'll gain multiple millions of AP in just a few weeks :P

On topic of the most optimal route? You're not forced into it, much like you're not forced to enchant and/or optimise your gear....

Regardless what they do, you won't have a choice where it matters. If Arms and Fury are within 5% of each other for mythic progression, you'll play the better 5%.
If you're not mythic progress, then you quite literally can go naked for all anyone cares. I genuinely don't understand these debates of options, there are no options for Mythic progress, there only is what is best.

[Archimtiros]

I feel like the 2 gold traits at the bottom of the tree are really a small DPS gain. Overall, it feel much more rewarding dps wise to level up the Fury artifact rather than the arm one.

The bottom curve, yes, but only Void Cleave is underwhelming as far as the notables are concerned. The reason that bottom curve is underwhelming is due to placement - you've got a hardly useable max rage bonus, a small self heal, cooldown DR bonus, and 2 AoE damage bonuses, not to mention that Void Cleave itself is an AoE only bonus. Compare to Fury, in which the AoE bonuses are also Single Target bonuses.

Of course, Fury also has bonuses that can be skipped without any care whatsoever. Wild Slashes, Uncontrolled Rage and Bloodcraze can all be easily skipped without gating any better bonuses, making the artifact much easier to level as a whole.

[Ezyah]

Corrupted Blood is 7-10% of your damage (maybe slightly more in some rare situations), that's hardly a small dps gain.

Where do you get those number from ? 10% overall damage out of 20% damage from a 6 sec cooldown ?

[Nightstalker]

So despite having Battlecry up attacks still get blocked. Can we just get rid of that stupid thing in the table?

[Murlocbait]

I think the artifacts are way too powerful and required for even basic functionality of some rotations for them to be gated too long. For Fury you have all three gold traits, focus in chaos, unrivaled strength, and helya's wrath (cooldown alignment, just annoying without it).

Oh i get that. Fundamentally, it's clear they decided either from the outset or not long after that people would fill out the entire Artifact tree. I was hoping to see something more like classic talents with options that required choices: you get A but you can't get B. Obviously that's not what Blizz wanted to do with them, and that's cool - it's still Blizz trying something new, which is great. I just would've loved to see a more dynamic design that encouraged meaningful decisions, rather than "look up guide, follow guide, fill tree."

[Yassy]

Oh i get that. Fundamentally, it's clear they decided either from the outset or not long after that people would fill out the entire Artifact tree. I was hoping to see something more like classic talents with options that required choices: you get A but you can't get B. Obviously that's not what Blizz wanted to do with them, and that's cool - it's still Blizz trying something new, which is great. I just would've loved to see a more dynamic design that encouraged meaningful decisions, rather than "look up guide, follow guide, fill tree."

Most of the decision making is pretty straightforward though. The rotation is built around Colossus Smash and Tactician so its very clear and obvious to take the talents that augument those first. There really is no need for a guide for most players. And to those who do need it, so what? Guides and third party websites like this one keep people engaged with the game even while not playing it. It helps spark interest to play. Almost every time I've gone back to play league of legends has been after watching someone else play it. I came back in MoP after watching someone else do Challenge modes.

Choice is never going to exist in talent trees as long as the staple playstyle is maximum performance. It can't fundamentally and never has.

I mean even when you had restrictions where you can get A but not B, which mind you I believe is a better model for balancing purposes, it still didnt promote choices.

I shouldn't say that it can't potentially happen actually. It could, just not under the Trinity model. If they reintroduced sub roles into talents and had PVE reflect that, then you could see varying builds. The Priest who was dispel spam heavy in BC/Wrath had a huge amount of talents that could effect that for example, so if their secondary role was dispelling debuffs you could see them drop healing talents for Mana reduction ones. But that would require them to revert back to the old Talent Trees or adapt a model like Tera's glyph system where you have a set number of points to modify each ability you have in some way.

[Artunias]

Where do you get those number from ? 10% overall damage out of 20% damage from a 6 sec cooldown ?

Arms is very burst centric spec. I haven't done super extensive testing with arms but I never saw it at less than 6.5% of my damage in a sustained situation and normally it was in the 7-9% range.

[Deleted]

Where do you get those number from ? 10% overall damage out of 20% damage from a 6 sec cooldown ?

Ask Mr. Robot released new beta project where u can simulate specs, talents, artifact perks and how they affect your spec etc. http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/run ... However I can't tell you how precise these simulations are, cuz I'm not theory crafter myself, I can only tell you by comparing my training dummy numbers and sim numbers, and they are pretty close (u can see deviation after you simulate your spec, and how much can it swing either way lower or higher). Site is pretty convenient u have logs, rotation (which u can edit yourself) etc.

[Warriorsarri]

The site is in very early beta right now. Corrupted Blood is really strong, not quite as strong as it was before the BS nerf, but still real strong. Go SD first, then go for Corrupted Blood.

[Artunias]

Arms on the other hand...

They nerf the only fucking talent that made execute even semi-playable. Buff the whirlwind spam build, and address absolutely zero other major concerns we've been bringing up with the spec for over 6 months.

Fuck me.

[Deleted]

Arms on the other hand...

They nerf the only fucking talent that made execute even semi-playable. Buff the whirlwind spam build, and address absolutely zero other major concerns we've been bringing up with the spec for over 6 months.

Fuck me.

I'm kinda hoping the In for the Kill change is a rework so it doesn't consume rage first but just gives, for a total equal gain, but I fear it will just be a straight nerf as it is the goto talent on that row, and we can't have that.

[Murlocbait]

I'm kinda hoping the In for the Kill change is a rework so it doesn't consume rage first but just gives, for a total equal gain, but I fear it will just be a straight nerf as it is the goto talent on that row, and we can't have that.

For Tactician's sake though, doesn't it need to consume the rage first, then refund it?

[Artunias]

For Tactician's sake though, doesn't it need to consume the rage first, then refund it?

Yes, it does.

[Warriorsarri]

Tactician counts the base costs of the spells, or that's at least how they treat Dauntless, Precise Strikes and the "Reck makes things free" talent.

Also, what's with the buff to Fervor, it was already the best choice.

[MisterBigglez]

I wonder if the change to Titanic Might is enough for it to be viable

Probably still the trap talent, go theorycrafters, i'm counting on you! ^_^

[Beardyface]

Tactician counts the base costs of the spells, or that's at least how they treat Dauntless, Precise Strikes and the "Reck makes things free" talent.

Also, what's with the buff to Fervor, it was already the best choice.

Because "why not whirlwind?"