BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Reeve]

I give up on this thread. Like I said the utter contempt that is being shown towards democracy and the will of the people is genuinely terrifying. Feels like I'm in 1984.

Funny you should mention it. Orwell was a passionate supporter of a United States of Europe under the sorts of democratic socialist principles popular in the current EU.

[Jodmos]

What? How? Didn't they give you any alternatives to leaving the EU or was it just "GO GO GREAT!!!! Britain!".

We pretty much have no border with the Republic. Since the trouble finished it's as easy to drive to Dublin as Belfast. Funny thing is I've been asked for my passport going to England but not Ireland. English still don't trust us so we need ID.

There were always a lot of bipartisan arrangements with the republic. I work in Agriculture and there's an agreement about Horse movements for instance (also applies to France but not the rest of the EU).

As far as the DUP is concerned "GO GO GREAT!!!! Britain!" would be their motto if they'd thought of it. Shengen just means (not 100% on all the details) not having to need a passport to travel between EU countries. UK still need them and EU need them coming here. It's additional protection.
.
I know Sinn Fein want a local referendum about a united Ireland but that's never going to happen. Even with the chaos in the UK it's still unlikely that Ireland would be better for the local economy.

As mentioned it would take a Sociopath to push the Article 50 button but if it ever happens I reckon we'll be quickly on to Scotland about retaining EU membership.

Northern Ireland as a whole is actually a nett recipient based on our GDP. We get more from the EU that are cut of the money that goes to them. Still it wasn't surprising that the DUP heartlands were the ones with leave votes (tight ones mostly). One thing about local politics here is that people tend to vote along party lines.

[Deleted]

We know there are consequences. Everybody knew the economy would suffer short to medium term, this vote was about more than that

It was about what? Getting a new trade deal with the EU that will have heavy consequences for you? Because that what you voted for and the Leave leadership forgot to tell you.

[Skroe]

I'm also going to say this, and I think Skroe will back me up.

If there's such a clear popular mandate for Brexit and a huge 'grassroots' movement for European secession, then you lot would have elected a government with the balls to carry it out and not pussyfoot tossing around the premiership in an effort to fob off the responsibility onto someone else. The fact that all UKIP managed to achieve was a few MEP seats in elections with pathetic turnouts shows Brexit has, in essence, feet of clay.

100% agree on this. 100%.

It's been remarkable how the Brexit side won... and then retreated to their panic rooms? I think there is a somewhat comparison in when George W Bush won re-election in 2004 on a pro-War platform (if not in name) by a 50.7% to 48.3% against John Kerry (numbers look familiar), one of the first things he said was "I have political capital and I intend to spend it". And sure enough he did, spending 2005 in an ultimately futile attempt to privatize social security (thank god that failed).

The margin was enough that the Brexit side should be in complete control and setting the agenda. Instead oddly, the Remain side seems to be the only people not hiding in a vault, 30 feet below ground. If there was any kind of mandate to this, the Brexit side would be in front of the world saying "we have political capital to do this, and we intend to spend it". The thing is, they never actually wanted that responsibility.

This entire referendum was a game. For David Cameron it was a pointless political game he never expected to even hold in the first place (expecting another coalition government a year ago). For the actual Brexiters, UKIP notwidthstanding, they were expecting to vote 'leave' and nobly lose. It's simple as that.

[Triks]

Yeah I think that's becoming very evident, across the entire Western world. Even in the US the commonality between some of Donald Trump (or less randomly crazy, Rand Paul) and Bernie Sanders is evidence of that.

And Jeremy Corbyn... he said publicly he voted to Remain. I got the sneaking suspicion he is lying through teeth. Just a thought, but since when does a life long hyper-ideological Socialist backbencher who is all about nationalizing everything believe in keeping his country inside one of the world's great achievements in neoliberal capitalism.

The center right and center left need to mobilize their superior numbers and power and start stepping on extremist bugs before we get more SYRIZAs, more PODEMOS, more Jeremy Corbyns, more Bernie Sanders, more UKIPs, more Donald Trumps, more National Fronts, more US Tea Partys.

Think of it like this - far left and far right parties appeal to the down-trodden because they give you the illusion of empowerment and mobilisation against a foe that has wronged you and taken away a lot from you. For communists it's "the evil capitalist scum" while for people like Farage and Le Pen it's "immigrants and the EU". They give people a good narrative and when you are completely broken and disenfranchised you will believe absolutely anything, hence the delusion that the markets are trying to punish the "will of the people".

I consider myself center-right but I feel that modern day left-leaning parties have completely failed their supposed electorate, hence why they defected to Farage and his goons. Current leftists pander more to spoiled-brat students and upper-middle class bleeding hearts rather than the "working class" and "proletariat" which in this day and age are meaningless words.

As you said, there needs to be a merger and more care should be given to these people.

[Elegiac]

We know there are consequences. Everybody knew the economy would suffer short to medium term, this vote was about more than that

Yes, the 350 million pounds that could be going to NHS. Obviously.

Brexit was political theatre that the British public bought into, nothing more.

[Triks]

By respecting a referendum result? K then.

If we would have voted for remain I would've accepted the result, not asked for a vote again and again until I got the decision I wanted

This is about the economic crisis you are about to unleash on the rest of us.

[Deleted]

I give up on this thread. Like I said the utter contempt that is being shown towards democracy and the will of the people is genuinely terrifying. Feels like I'm in 1984.

It's always always always always always always either 1984, the nazis or Lenin hippies. It's short for "know what I mean ?".
Draw in the broadest strokes, be it applicable to the topic or not, at least you let everyone know, they're dealing with a closeted historian.

[Reeve]

The margin was enough that the Brexit side should be in complete control and setting the agenda. Instead oddly, the Remain side seems to be the only people not hiding in a vault, 30 feet below ground. If there was any kind of mandate to this, the Brexit side would be in front of the world saying "we have political capital to do this, and we intend to spend it". The thing is, they never actually wanted that responsibility.

This entire referendum was a game. For David Cameron it was a pointless political game he never expected to even hold in the first place (expecting another coalition government a year ago). For the actual Brexiters, UKIP notwidthstanding, they were expecting to vote 'leave' and nobly lose. It's simple as that.

This does, in fact, seem to be the reality of the situation.

[Triks]

We pretty much have no border with the Republic. Since the trouble finished it's as easy to drive to Dublin as Belfast. Funny thing is I've been asked for my passport going to England but not Ireland. English still don't trust us so we need ID.

There were always a lot of bipartisan arrangements with the republic. I work in Agriculture and there's an agreement about Horse movements for instance (also applies to France but not the rest of the EU).

As far as the DUP is concerned "GO GO GREAT!!!! Britain!" would be their motto if they'd thought of it. Shengen just means (not 100% on all the details) not having to need a passport to travel between EU countries. UK still need them and EU need them coming here. It's additional protection.
.
I know Sinn Fein want a local referendum about a united Ireland but that's never going to happen. Even with the chaos in the UK it's still unlikely that Ireland would be better for the local economy.

As mentioned it would take a Sociopath to push the Article 50 button but if it ever happens I reckon we'll be quickly on to Scotland about retaining EU membership.

Northern Ireland as a whole is actually a nett recipient based on our GDP. We get more from the EU that are cut of the money that goes to them. Still it wasn't surprising that the DUP heartlands were the ones with leave votes (tight ones mostly). One thing about local politics here is that people tend to vote along party lines.

I can't understand why you would vote on party lines when your whole livelihood depends on the EU.

[Kronik85]

And Jeremy Corbyn... he said publicly he voted to Remain. I got the sneaking suspicion he is lying through teeth.

I don't think he has ever publicly stated how he voted.

Jeremy wouldn't confirm how he voted in that referendum.

[Elegiac]

This entire referendum was a game. For David Cameron it was a pointless political game he never expected to even hold in the first place (expecting another coalition government a year ago). For the actual Brexiters, UKIP notwidthstanding, they were expecting to vote 'leave' and nobly lose. It's simple as that.

The more amusing thing to me is that this effort to demonstrate that the EU is a paper tiger is probably going to wind up doing more to encourage the EU to close ranks.

One would think after Tspiras' little game of bullshit that the Leavers would see that the European commission isn't going to have any of it.

[Deleted]

Well there is also plan B. Give them something else to worry about. As an example:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36644934

The hits keep coming. This is pretty much text book deflection politics. Wave the right hand so violently that people dont realize what the left hand is doing. It works the world over.

lol, go away with your US-led mickey mouse rating agencies.
How many of them have rightfully downgraded the US from AAA to AA+? 1?

Granted, you can worry us if you pull out your numero uno brainslug called Soros and tell us his plans if Brexit finalizes, but not with this.

[Slant]

Ford's got some Fiestas for you!

Yeah, buddy. The main production plants are in... *surprise* Germany. England's producing transmissions for Ford in Europe and that's it. But hey, good luck pretending the UK got the upper hand.

[klogaroth]

I don't think he has ever publicly stated how he voted.

He shouldn't have to, either.

One of the fundamental principles of democracy is being able to keep votes private.

If this is going to be true for ordinary people it has to be true for everyone. Politicians included.

[TheTaurenOrc]

Brexit was political theatre that the British public bought into, nothing more.

I think you're under estimating how deep this result goes. Its not feat of political theatre, its the culmination of many events into a perfect storm for leave.

Without the great recession there wouldn't have been a Brexit.
Without the immigrant crisis through Europe there wouldn't have been a Brexit.
I dare say without the Olympics and Queens Jubilee whipping everyone up into a patriotic fever pitch there wouldn't have been a Brexit.

Saying that the British people were duped by a hand full of politicians is giving those politicians too much credit. This sentiment has be building for a long, long time.

[alexw]

Personally, we're about to see a one party system, the Lib Dems are not even close to electable and the Labour party have imploded. The Tories will chose May over Boris and they'll be untouchable. Maybe I'm being pessimistic.

I'm very doubtful that will happen. The UK economy is basically imploding right now. It will take a few weeks for the mass job losses to come but they will come. That will utterly discredit the conservatives who have overseen this whole debacle.

I honestly can't guess at what will happen politically but with all parties discredited it won't be a one party system though I can readily envision new parties forming and the old ones being completely obliterated.

[Skroe]

I don't think he has ever publicly stated how he voted.

He said on Twitter I read earlier, he voted to Remain.

I think that's a lie, and one he didn't want to actually put on record as coming out of his mouth so when in a few months time, and when he's a back bencher again, he can come out of the "Brexit closet".

[Triks]

The more amusing thing to me is that this effort to demonstrate that the EU is a paper tiger is probably going to wind up doing more to encourage the EU to close ranks.

One would think after Tspiras' little game of bullshit that the Leavers would see that the European commission isn't going to have any of it.

I will never understand why people underestimate the EU. When it wants to be brutal, it can be VERY brutal as Tsipras found out.

[Elegiac]

lol, go away with your US-led mickey mouse rating agencies.
How many of them have rightfully downgraded the US from AAA to AA+? 1?

Granted, you can worry us if you pull out your numero uno brainslug called Soros and tell us his plans if Brexit finalizes, but not with this.

You may not trust Moody's or S&P, but do you know who does?

The people making all the financial and investment related decisions. Which is why they're preparing to up and run from London if Brexit actually happens.