European Superstate Incoming

[Elegiac]

Somehow I'm surprised that German media reports about much tamer ideas than Poland and British sources say. Well, Britain's press is shite, so we can ignore them. Leaves Poland.. and right now, I'm pondering if they're hyperboling or justified. Oh well, we'll see. Europe getting closer together is a good thing in general. Controlling the borders in a joint operation makes sense, too. This is about countries like Germany doing their job to protect borders in Greece. Everyone asked for it, because Germany has fuck all to do with borders these days. But now when Germany agrees to contribute to the common effort, people freak out?

Go fucking figure...

> Freaks out about the refugee issue
> Germany offers a plan to reduce the problem caused by corrupt Greek and Italian immigration officials
> 'Muh sovereignty'.

That's really all it comes down.

[Lord Berserker]

So, win win for everyone?

Like how being under the USSR was so amazing for Poland right?

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> Freaks out about the refugee issue
> Germany offers a plan to reduce the problem caused by corrupt Greek and Italian immigration officials
> 'Muh sovereignty'.

That's really all it comes down.

Yeah, surprisngly enough people generally dislike being ruled by a bureaucracy from other countries.

[Elegiac]

Like how being under the USSR was so amazing for Poland right?

Apples, oranges. A more accurate comparison would be the United States.

Yeah, surprisngly enough people generally dislike being ruled by a bureaucracy from other countries.

For specious reasons since it isn't readily apparently that their local governments give more of a shit than the Eurocrats in Brussels who actually bother sending money their way.

[Acidbaron]

Like how being under the USSR was so amazing for Poland right?

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Yeah, surprisingly enough people generally dislike being ruled by a bureaucracy from other countries.

Okay, Poland can be free of any involvement, any influence, any regulations. All they need to do is pay back all funds they obtain yearly from the Union, than you can compare it to the USSR, a collective that ran countries into the ground with poverty, well placed agents and troops to drum up riots to install communism to further strengthen USSR's influence.

I know plenty of Poles and i have yet to hear any of them complain about their right to work here that puts them head and shoulders above their countrymen. I could educated you what Poland right political power movement fears but educating you based on previous posts seems to be an utter waste of time.

[Theodarzna]

There was the Holy Roman Empire 1000 years ago and Europe was nothing more than a bunch of monarchs with family ties ruling over peasants. The idea of nation only appeared in the 1500s and nationalism in the 1800s.

People say that, but to an extent the idea of community of people that is "Us," and others as "Them," is actually older than dirt. At least going back to the Venerable Bede is there an idea "nation," and "these people," and "those people."

The idea that the "Nation," is some new concept is purely born of the deep and earnest desire to be rid of it, for if something has not always been it can one day cease to be.

[Lord Berserker]

Apples, oranges. A more accurate comparison would be the United States.

How is it Apples and Oranges exactly? Because the USSR gets bad press? I don't see the United states forcing sanctioned quotas of immigrants or their states.

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Okay, Poland can be free of any involvement, any influence, any regulations. All they need to do is pay back all funds they obtain yearly from the Union, than you can compare it to the USSR, a collective that ran countries into the ground with poverty, well placed agents and troops to drum up riots to install communism to further strengthen USSR's influence.

I know plenty of Poles and i have yet to hear any of them complain about their right to work here that puts them head and shoulders above their countrymen. I could educated you what Poland right political power movement fears but educating you based on previous posts seems to be an utter waste of time.

- Federal army and special forces, single countries not allowed to have their own army (like in USA)
- Unification of penal law and tax system.
- Euro as the only allowed currency.
- Unified travel visa system.
- Unified foreign politiciss, with reduced role of NATO.

Sounds alot like what the USSR wanted.

[Elegiac]

How is it Apples and Oranges exactly? Because the USSR gets bad press? I don't see the United states forcing sanctioned quotas of immigrants or their states.

Largely because there's no 'forcing' involved; the US federal government has clear jurisdiction over border control and immigration.

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- Federal army and special forces, single countries not allowed to have their own army (like in USA)
- Unification of penal law and tax system.
- Euro as the only allowed currency.
- Unified travel visa system.
- Unified foreign politiciss, with reduced role of NATO.

Sounds alot like what the USSR wanted.

Or how a federalised state works.

[Theodarzna]

Largely because there's no 'forcing' involved; the US federal government has clear jurisdiction over border control and immigration.

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Or how a federalised state works.

Federalisation is easier done when the Federal Government is solely responsible for the creation of the various States, in the US all but 14-15 of them were explicitly created to be US States. No European nation was created to be a province of an EU, all of them are effectively ethnic homelands.

If anything the USSR Oblast is a better comparison since each little republic/oblast was made usually to be an enclave region for a specific ethnic group.

[Wikiy]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...erstate-Brexit

Sorry, that is not a reliable site. Look at this shit. Sensationalist asshats.

Besides... I generally support the idea of a federal Europe. However, I'm not sure why any of us would think that European leaders like Merkel or Hollande would want that - there hasn't actually been any evidence to support this claim. Also, even if they supported such a thing, they wouldn't be so stupid to actually go with it right now. Europe is not ready yet. More than half the member states would leave should such a thing be attempted. My country included, because, if for no other reason, we've been a member state for a few years. It'd be a crazy transition, even for me, to go from being a citizen of a non-EU state to a federal EU citizen in the span of a decade.

So please, people, chill your fucking balls. This is all nonsense.

[Lord Berserker]

Federalisation is easier done when the Federal Government is solely responsible for the creation of the various States, in the US all but 14-15 of them were explicitly created to be US States. No European nation was created to be a province of an EU, all of them are effectively ethnic homelands.

If anything the USSR Oblast is a better comparison since each little republic/oblast was made usually to be an enclave region for a specific ethnic group.

Exactly my point. As much as the polish people enjoy the free money the EU sends them, they'll suddenly dislike the idea of being a "State" to a "EU country" where someone in Brussels dictates what they do with everything.

[Wikiy]

Exactly my point. As much as the polish people enjoy the free money the EU sends them, they'll suddenly dislike the idea of being a "State" to a "EU country" where someone in Brussels dictates what they do with everything.

Let's not exaggerate. Federal arrangements mostly provide a united army, a cohesive, united monetary policy, and a few other things that the EU has effectively already half-way unified itself on. A great deal of legislative power remains with the states, such as the power to have an individual educational policy.

[nonameelf]

Let's not exaggerate. Federal arrangements mostly provide a united army, a cohesive, united monetary policy, and a few other things that the EU has effectively already half-way unified itself on. A great deal of legislative power remains with the states, such as the power to have an individual educational policy.

A united army means member nations no longer have a choice in which wars they are involved in.

[Theodarzna]

Let's not exaggerate. Federal arrangements mostly provide a united army, a cohesive, united monetary policy, and a few other things that the EU has effectively already half-way unified itself on. A great deal of legislative power remains with the states, such as the power to have an individual educational policy.

Well, unlike say California, or most any US State, there exists no War memorial for people who died to make Poland an EU Province, all those various war memorials, folk heroes ect died to make Poland free of foreign rule, to make a Polish Nation State. Indeed Europe is cluttered with various memorials and graveyards of people who died for Ireland, France, Italy, Greece, ect.

In the US, unless your an Indian or Southern all your war memorials aren't for Montana, California, or elsewhere, but for the United States.

As a historical fact its difficult to make a federal union out of States that don't owe their existence to that Federal Union.

[Lord Berserker]

Well, unlike say California, or most any US State, there exists no War memorial for people who died to make Poland an EU Province, all those various war memorials, folk heroes ect died to make Poland free of foreign rule, to make a Polish Nation State. Indeed Europe is cluttered with various memorials and graveyards of people who died for Ireland, France, Italy, Greece, ect.

In the US, unless your an Indian or Southern all your war memorials aren't for Montana, California, or elsewhere, but for the United States.

As a historical fact its difficult to make a federal union out of States that don't owe their existence to that Federal Union.

Keep in mind some of these Eastern European states actively hate each other.

[Wikiy]

Well, unlike say California, or most any US State, there exists no War memorial for people who died to make Poland an EU Province, all those various war memorials, folk heroes ect died to make Poland free of foreign rule, to make a Polish Nation State. Indeed Europe is cluttered with various memorials and graveyards of people who died for Ireland, France, Italy, Greece, ect.

In the US, unless your an Indian or Southern all your war memorials aren't for Montana, California, or elsewhere, but for the United States.

Alright, I'm sure many Europeans care about that sort of thing. National heroes and the sort. There was this one ban (viceroy) of Croatia who went about being really nasty to the Hungarians during the 19th century because we were finally able to rid ourselves to some degree of their influence (been in a joint union under Hungarian kings since 1102) and he's praised as some sort of national hero over here because he did that. There's a huge statue of him on his horse on the main square, I pass it twice, sometimes four times a day. Having said all that, I then remember that he did all of that the behest of the Austrians - both Croatia and Hungary were at the time under the Austrian Empire. All he did was remove Croatia from Hungary's control and put us under Austrian control.

So, at the end of the day, it's sort of like something out of GoT. He wasn't a hero - he was just a player in a historical farce. I can't have feelings about that. I also can't have feelings like, for example, hatred or dislike of the Austrians or Hungarians. That's just silly. While such silly dislikes still exist to some degree (Brits and French, for example), such idiocies are slowly dying out, along with the primitive people who bear such thoughts.

As a historical fact its difficult to make a federal union out of States that don't owe their existence to that Federal Union.

I'm not sure if it makes any sense to talk about historical facts in the context of the European Union. We're talking about a continent that has up to 70 years ago been trying to destroy itself through petty regional or huge global (but still centered on Europe) conflicts. It's not like history can tell us anything in this situation. What has been happening in Europe for the last 70 years is unprecedented. The vast majority of living Europeans haven't actually seen real war nor has their country actually been in a real war since their birth. Europeans don't care about wars. Any wars. Europeans are pragmatic in the modern age. If they see a federation as a pragmatic thing, they might be willing to give up a portion of their independence. It's not like I'm talking about something revolutionary here. The EU is already a semi-federation.

[Theodarzna]

I'm not sure if it makes any sense to talk about historical facts in the context of the European Union. We're talking about a continent that has up to 70 years ago been trying to destroy itself through petty regional or huge global (but still centered on Europe) conflicts. It's not like history can tell us anything in this situation. What has been happening in Europe for the last 70 years is unprecedented. The vast majority of living Europeans haven't actually seen real war nor has their country actually been in a real war since their birth. Europeans don't care about wars. Any wars. Europeans are pragmatic in the modern age. If they see a federation as a pragmatic thing, they might be willing to give up a portion of their independence. It's not like I'm talking about something revolutionary here. The EU is already a semi-federation.

A continent that off and on warred, as do all people, struggle is life. 70 years is also not that long. My great grandmother is still alive at almost 102.

Rejecting Brexit would have been pragmatic, the problem of pragmetism is what may seem pragmatic may ultimately bee a bad idea in the long run. The EU has very little need to change, more over I don't see it being "Federated," What seems to be growing is a more or less unitary State. Going further than that the EU Commission system is woefully undemocratic, though for Didactic that is probably a plus.

Even though I supported the Remain camp, I don't see pushing along to even be a wise decision with Europe experiencing a big of a ground swell against "More Europe," among those people you might call "the Proles"

[Wikiy]

A continent that off and on warred, as do all people, struggle is life. 70 years is also not that long. My great grandmother is still alive at almost 102.

70 years of perpetual peace, no tensions and close cooperation is a big deal.

Rejecting Brexit would have been pragmatic, the problem of pragmetism is what may seem pragmatic may ultimately bee a bad idea in the long run. The EU has very little need to change, more over I don't see it being "Federated," What seems to be growing is a more or less unitary State. Going further than that the EU Commission system is woefully undemocratic, though for Didactic that is probably a plus.

You may or not be surprised that I generally agree. The EU doesn't really need to integrate itself a lot more. Not now. It's something best left for a better future.

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A united army means member nations no longer have a choice in which wars they are involved in.

It's not like Europe is divided in its geopolitical goals. They only really have one goal - to protect themselves.

[nonameelf]

It's not like Europe is divided in its geopolitical goals. They only really have one goal - to protect themselves.

Not really. Some nations are members of NATO and other who wish to remain neutral aren't. NATO members have been actively involved in various wars.

[vastx]

Let's not exaggerate. Federal arrangements mostly provide a united army, a cohesive, united monetary policy, and a few other things that the EU has effectively already half-way unified itself on. A great deal of legislative power remains with the states, such as the power to have an individual educational policy.

Dangerous if you ask me. All too easy for the centralized power to grow and take power away from the state and local governments.

[Deleted]

Besides... I generally support the idea of a federal Europe.

In principle it would be great.

But currently there's way too much shit involved.