European Superstate Incoming

[Gsara]

nice of germany to share a little of the power... for a while that it is.

Yeah, the document reads a lot like they are really wanting their own form of the M.I.C that we so love here in the US. Not sure how well that is going to go over in some of those countries.

[Wikiy]

No fucking way I am ever going to support this.
Last idiot that tried for a unified Europe was that failed house painter from Austria.

Err, no... What he had in mind was more like a huge German Empire.

If you're going to make arguments of this sort, Napoleon is your better bet:

Europe thus divided into nationalities freely formed and free internally, peace between States would have become easier: the United States of Europe would become a possibility.

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Yeah, the document reads a lot like they are really wanting their own form of the M.I.C that we so love here in the US. Not sure how well that is going to go over in some of those countries.

Is this document ever going to be translated in English and actually posted online? How could it not have happened yet? If it's genuine, it'd kind of be the news of the year. Which makes me thing it's shite.

[Deleted]

Hitler was allowed to start WW2 because he had way too much leeway actually. People (Chamberlain come to mind, but he's not alone) negotiated with him because they were desperate to avoid conflict, and by doing so they provoked their own demise. Might also be a good reminder for when dealing with an ideology that aim to completely dominate its enemy.



I see no argument here. He did want to unite Europe, by conquering East-EU because of the Lebensraum. And by conquering France because he hated it much more than jews.
Now the question you have to ask about anyone who ever wanted or will want to "Unite" their neighbours is : Under what rule ?

The word unification, means different entities or factors or rules coming together as one. Hitler was about eliminating everyone else but his own people, unlike the roman empire that simply imposed their own rules on everyone else, but everyone was allowed to become full member of the empire. Hitler was the complete opposite of a united europe.

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There was war in Czechoslovakia, Greece, Cyprus, Yugoslavia, Moldova and Ukraine in the last 70 years. The EU is pretty useless.

There was never war among members of the EU, the EU is doing exactly what people hoped it would do.

[Macaquerie]

Well there is something to say about "investment in the group," it goes beyond "Army service," to just general.... Am I willing to work harder, be a good neighbour, work with these strangers who aren't my kin ect.

As Benedict Anderson noted in his Imagined Communities, for all its intellectual shallowness the main method by which we have gotten vast groups of people to work together has generally been nationalism, religion or fear. Nearly every, if not every, Communist revolution was at its core a nationalist struggle against a foreign population from Cuba to Vietnam, and Communism is supposed to be some internationalist brotherhood of all mankind.

The idea of "Post-Nationalism," is so new as some sort of mandated concept that we don't actually know if people will act as they did before. I mean is social trust attainable without it? Is the type of social cohesion attainable without it?

The problem with that is that just about every meaningful achievement that could be attributed to nationalism has come at the expense of a foreign nation, who then made revenge a central plank of their own nationalist ideology. The world has largely moved past the idea of zero-sum struggles between warring tribes, so why go back to it now?

[Alakallanar]

Is this document ever going to be translated in English and actually posted online? How could it not have happened yet? If it's genuine, it'd kind of be the news of the year. Which makes me thing it's shite.

The OP edited his post to include a link to the english text of the paper before this thread even reached page 2. But apparently most posters (including the OP) didn't bother to read it and realize that most claims are made up bullshit not mentioned or contradicted by the document (e.g. reduced role of NATO, no own army allowed, Euro as only currency allowed,...) .

& people wondered why we decided to leave. you may understand a little more now.

If by this you mean that people get confirmation that large parts of the UK population* believe any bullshit they read and can't be assed to put the least bit of effort into fact checking, then you are prbably right.

*As do large parts of humanity in general. It is not a uniquely british deficiency. For god's sake, the polish news site itself provides the source that disproves its own claims, and this shit still manages to be taken serious by an appreciable number of people?

[Hooked]

Looks like the uk got out just in time.

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The problem with that is that just about every meaningful achievement that could be attributed to nationalism has come at the expense of a foreign nation, who then made revenge a central plank of their own nationalist ideology. The world has largely moved past the idea of zero-sum struggles between warring tribes, so why go back to it now?

That's what rome thought also, look what happened to them.

[Theodarzna]

The problem with that is that just about every meaningful achievement that could be attributed to nationalism has come at the expense of a foreign nation, who then made revenge a central plank of their own nationalist ideology. The world has largely moved past the idea of zero-sum struggles between warring tribes, so why go back to it now?

Ah, well I say we have certainly deluded ourselves into thinking we are better, we now pollute the world and do not care, send the climate spiralling, and the "glorious not-nations" depend on those so-called "backward," part of the world not yet "enlightened," for fresh new population to make to make up for our shortfall.

Your good with platitudes and I am Oh, so glad you think mankind has fundamentally changed in the last 60 years, That you, YOU are the pinnacle of aeons.

Got any other pithy meaningless shit? I am sure you are the long awaited "New Man," we've heard people bang on about for ages now.

[nextormento]

There's a nuance of distinction; nationalism entails a feeling of exclusivity, superiority, and ultimately aggression.

That's chauvinism, not nationalism.

[Macaquerie]

That's chauvinism, not nationalism.

In theory, there could be a nationalist movement out there that recognizes that their group has no inherent superiority over others but still advocates for its interests anyway, but in practice this pretty much never happens.

"Hey guys, I realize our tribe kind of sucks and isn't really all that cool or special, but that's WHY we all need to stick together to avoid getting screwed over!"

Come to think of it, that would actually be a pretty damned compelling argument if anyone actually used it...

[Theodarzna]

There's a nuance of distinction; nationalism entails a feeling of exclusivity, superiority, and ultimately aggression.

And stating as much is merely virtue signalling.

[nextormento]

In theory, there could be a nationalist movement out there that recognizes that their group has no inherent superiority over others but still advocates for its interests anyway, but in practice this pretty much never happens.

Yes, we could argue days on end if superiority is necessary to the idea or not.
But, if we are to acknowledge the existence of some nuance on that characteristic it doesn't lie between nationalism and patriotism.

And we could also argue until the end of time what it all actually means. Though, it's probably futile, I'll offer my own understanding as a person living in a country with different recognized nationalities, that has talked extensively with folks with very strong national sentiments:
patriotism is one aspect of national identity; being a patriot necessarily implies a nationalist sentiment; putting them on an axis to label one good and the other evil is entirely unproductive and often just an exercise on supremacy on itself: my specific sentiment is the good one unlike yours.

[Deleted]

Is this document ever going to be translated in English and actually posted online? How could it not have happened yet? If it's genuine, it'd kind of be the news of the year. Which makes me thing it's shite.

A link to the Polish site, containing a full scan of the original document written in English at the bottom of the page, was posted earlier.

Earlier I linked a page from The Times in the UK from April, talking about the intention of crafting the document. Additionally Tagesschau, one of the most trusted public service news outlets in Germany, has started to talk (in German) about the changes in EU policies.

[nonameelf]

Your dictionary makes a very poor distinction. It is true that "country" is all about the political entity on a certain area, while "nation" are the citizens within it, somehow bound together by certain historical / ethnical / religious / whatever reasons.

Easy and simple proof of the difference would be this sentence:
"The Kurds are the largest nation in the world without their own country."

So, the United Nations is not comprised of nations? Should probably rename the organization then.

[Macaquerie]

Yes, we could argue days on end if superiority is necessary to the idea or not.
But, if we are to acknowledge the existence of some nuance on that characteristic it doesn't lie between nationalism and patriotism.

And we could also argue until the end of time what it all actually means. Though, it's probably futile, I'll offer my own understanding as a person living in a country with different recognized nationalities, that has talked extensively with folks with very strong national sentiments:
patriotism is one aspect of national identity; being a patriot necessarily implies a nationalist sentiment; putting them on an axis to label one good and the other evil is entirely unproductive and often just an exercise on supremacy on itself: my specific sentiment is the good one unlike yours.

Hey if you need a little bit of that nationalistic fervor to make yourself feel special and accepted, then more power to you, just don't try and pretend that sentiment is based in any kind of rational thought.

[Deleted]

A link to the Polish site, containing a full scan of the original document written in English at the bottom of the page, was posted earlier.

Earlier I linked a page from The Times in the UK from April, talking about the intention of crafting the document. Additionally Tagesschau, one of the most trusted public service news outlets in Germany, has started to talk (in German) about the changes in EU policies.

That's actually terrifying

[ati87]

That's actually terrifying

well lets be honest and most right wingers (and right wingers acting like left wingers) are afraid of their own shadow.

It was fear that drove the Brexit vote...not cold hard truth (because that was ignored)

[nextormento]

Hey if you need a little bit of that nationalistic fervor to make yourself feel special and accepted, then more power to you, just don't try and pretend that sentiment is based in any kind of rational thought.

I don't foster much national sentiments.
But let's not pretend that the absolute claim that nationalism necessitates supremacy is anything but incompetent ignorance.

[Annu]

A link to the Polish site, containing a full scan of the original document written in English at the bottom of the page, was posted earlier.

Earlier I linked a page from The Times in the UK from April, talking about the intention of crafting the document. Additionally Tagesschau, one of the most trusted public service news outlets in Germany, has started to talk (in German) about the changes in EU policies.

I don't see anything terrifying in these links.

One of the main reasons for war in Europe have been the national armies. If the are eliminated, no EU member state would be able to attack another member state. Furthermore, in a real crisis the national armies are more or less worthless when compared to the US forces even though Europe spends more money on its military than Russia and China together. For external threats an EU army would significantly increase the safety of the whole EU.

The only thing about the EU that terrifies me is that in contrast to the US, there are no elections for the president of the European Commission. Furthermore, the European Council is also not elected directly, while in the US both Senate and Congress have direct elections.

If the EU would have the same level of democracy as the US, I would instantly support an EU army.

[Slant]

It is. If people don't give a shit about their nation they're not going to do things like sign up for the military.

People joining up the military out of national pride should not be allowed in the military. It's a job for professionals, not nationalistic zealots.

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That's actually terrifying

It's actually not. Especially the German media reports of much less tame ideas and proposals than the Polish media seems to spread. There is a discrepancy in truth, we'll see who's hyperboling and who's hiding the true nature in the coming weeks, I suppose. Given the reservations EU countries have about giving up sovereignity, I'll bet on the German approach of closer cooperation rather than... a super state. That's silly at this stage. Europe's not there, yet.

But consolidating the military absolutely makes sense from a Eurostrategical point of view. This is one thing @Skroe is hitting the nail on the head about, we are wasting effort and money on having 28 militaries that are equally badly equipped instead of one military (this is the EU security bit, btw, for the uninitiated) that is financed out of the vast EU budget. Why does Austria even need a military? Or Germany? We're surrounded by friends. The only reason we still have a military is tradition and/or our obligations to NATO and the UN (in that order).

[nonameelf]

People joining up the military out of national pride should not be allowed in the military. It's a job for professionals, not nationalistic zealots.

Why do you think there was a serge in people joining the military after 9/11?