European Superstate Incoming

[bufferunderrun]

my reaction if that document is confirmed true

[Slant]

Why do you think there was a serge in people joining the military after 9/11?

Because that's what happens when your country is attacked. As much as I think the US are a bit too much on the zealot side, when THOSE guys say they joined to actually defend their home, I believe it. That's why there was a surge. It wasn't to bring US glory somewhere else, it was because they felt directly attacked and wanted to make sure everyone understood that that was a really bad move...

[nonameelf]

Because that's what happens when your country is attacked. As much as I think the US are a bit too much on the zealot side, when THOSE guys say they joined to actually defend their home, I believe it. That's why there was a surge. It wasn't to bring US glory somewhere else, it was because they felt directly attacked and wanted to make sure everyone understood that that was a really bad move...

This sounds like having pride in their nation to me.

[Slant]

This sounds like having pride in their nation to me.

No, it sounds like they've defended their home. There's a bit of difference in that. I suggest you go to Syria and ask someone living there why he picked up a weapon. Chances are he'll tell you he doesn't really give much of a fuck about Syria, Assad or the Rebels, but he built his house with his own hands and doesn't want some jackass to destroy it.

[nonameelf]

No, it sounds like they've defended their home. There's a bit of difference in that. I suggest you go to Syria and ask someone living there why he picked up a weapon. Chances are he'll tell you he doesn't really give much of a fuck about Syria, Assad or the Rebels, but he built his house with his own hands and doesn't want some jackass to destroy it.

Oh, so it was just people in New York city who felt directly attacked that signed up for the military after 9/11 then?

[Macaquerie]

Why do you think there was a serge in people joining the military after 9/11?

How is patriotic fervor spurring a country to war an argument in favor of nationalism? With the benefit of hindsight we know now that the War on Terror was a failure on practically every level. It took nearly a decade before we were able to kill Bin Laden, and the prolonged wars in Afghanistan and Iraq proved to be little more than bloody sideshows to that end. We also didn't do much to combat terrorism, if anything the jihadist organizations are stronger now than they have ever been. And to top it all off, while we were distracted, our old enemies Russia and China took advantage of the general disapproval of American militarism to assert their own claims to territory and regional hegemony. America, fuck yeah?

[nonameelf]

How is patriotic fervor spurring a country to war an argument in favor of nationalism? With the benefit of hindsight we know now that the War on Terror was a failure on practically every level. It took nearly a decade before we were able to kill Bin Laden, and the prolonged wars in Afghanistan and Iraq proved to be little more than bloody sideshows to that end. We also didn't do much to combat terrorism, if anything the jihadist organizations are stronger now than they have ever been. And to top it all off, while we were distracted, our old enemies Russia and China took advantage of the general disapproval of American militarism to assert their own claims to territory and regional hegemony. America, fuck yeah?

I'm not sure why there's this belief that patriotism and nationalism are somehow drastically different and that one is good and the other is evil. Patriotism is a form of nationalism.

[Kuntantee]

People joining up the military out of national pride should not be allowed in the military. It's a job for professionals, not nationalistic zealots.

Military is not an ordinary job. Forget the fancy definitions, their objective is to die or kill in a war, unless enemy surrenders. You definitely want nationalist/patriotic motivations within soldiers. Otherwise, as long as robots aren't fighting, such army is bound to lose.

Do you think Prussians were just "professional soldiers" without high levels of national pride?

[Stormdash]

How is patriotic fervor spurring a country to war an argument in favor of nationalism? With the benefit of hindsight we know now that the War on Terror was a failure on practically every level. It took nearly a decade before we were able to kill Bin Laden, and the prolonged wars in Afghanistan and Iraq proved to be little more than bloody sideshows to that end. We also didn't do much to combat terrorism, if anything the jihadist organizations are stronger now than they have ever been. And to top it all off, while we were distracted, our old enemies Russia and China took advantage of the general disapproval of American militarism to assert their own claims to territory and regional hegemony. America, fuck yeah?

Because the "War on Terror" was never anything other than a political branding statement. I know it's uncool to acknowledge that people under 30 might not know everything, but the parents and grandparents old enough to remember WWII knew something was "wrong" after 9/11 because... nothing really changed. The national focus didn't shift at the cultural level, Rosie did not pick up her rivets, we didn't end up having to put our regularly scheduled programming or sports on hold because purging the world of the barbarian depravity that is fundamentalist Islamism was neither made an express national policy or cultural rallying cry the way defeating the Axis powers became.

In a very real sense, the WGA strike had more disruptive effect on the way Americans went about their day, for a longer period, than 9/11 did, and THAT is how the "War on Terror" essentially failed.

If the US had the wherewithal it did back then, not only would it have been much more successful, history would probably already be standing on the bones of the Islamofundies who would have gone back under their literal and figurative rocks for a few centuries again. But that was back when the Empire State Building could be built in 18 months, and not now when even replacing the WTC took a dozen years.

[Slant]

Oh, so it was just people in New York city who felt directly attacked that signed up for the military after 9/11 then?

If I was you, I'd stop pushing this subject. No, it wasn't just NYC boys joining up, it was an attack on the country. Just let it go..

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Military is not an ordinary job. Forget the fancy definitions, their objective is to die or kill in a war, unless enemy surrenders. You definitely want nationalist/patriotic motivations within soldiers. Otherwise, as long as robots aren't fighting, such army is bound to lose.

Uh, yeah, not sure if you followed the latest conflicts, but they're not fighting for their country as such. Iraq happened because of how nationalistic pride got abused by Bush. Nationalism is a dumb idea if you want to give a dude weapons.

[nonameelf]

If I was you, I'd stop pushing this subject. No, it wasn't just NYC boys joining up, it was an attack on the country. Just let it go..

And? You don't want people to care about their country.

[Slant]

And? You don't want people to care about their country.

Can you stop the nonsense already? You're trying to manipulate me like a high school student, it's embarassing to watch.

[Kuntantee]

Uh, yeah, not sure if you followed the latest conflicts, but they're not fighting for their country as such. Iraq happened because of how nationalistic pride got abused by Bush. Nationalism is a dumb idea if you want to give a dude weapons.

That's precisely why you want to educate your officers so that their national pride won't bar their brain functioning, and stop your average soldier going berserk. Note that not all nationalists will just go on random killing spree. They are mostly fringe cases. The worst impact of nationalists, as you described, is their voting preference. In my opinion. nationalism/patriotism is the best weapon in the battlefield so long as human factor is relevant, i.e., robots aren't fighting for us.

[nonameelf]

Can you stop the nonsense already? You're trying to manipulate me like a high school student, it's embarassing to watch.

lol, ok.

So, I'm to take from this that people are supposed to want to defend their nation, but not care about it at the same time I guess. Seems confusing.

[Slant]

That's precisely why you want to educate your officers so that their national pride won't bar their brain functioning, and stop your average soldier going berserk. Note that not all nationalists will just go on random killing spree. They are mostly fringe case. The worst impact of nationalists, as you described, is their voting preference. In my opinion. nationalism/patriotism is the best weapon in the battlefield so long as human factor is relevant, i.e., robots aren't fighting for us.

You can't completely exclude some sort of nationalism, patriotism in itself is just fine. It's the nationalistic bit that needs to be contained to a minimum. As for your earlier question about Prussians... I think they were professionals first, nationals second, yes. I haven't looked into that period, too much, but the original Prussia (not Hitler's version of it) was more about discipline and a properly run state rather than nationalistic tendencies. Those came later with Bismarck, really. late 19th century. Prussia is a thing of the late 18th/early 19th century.

[prwraith]

Hitler for a start.

Still looking at the current trends, I wish them good luck on passing the "Democracy" step.

Hitler was a great man. Terrible but great.

[Deleted]

Military is not an ordinary job. Forget the fancy definitions, their objective is to die or kill in a war, unless enemy surrenders. You definitely want nationalist/patriotic motivations within soldiers. Otherwise, as long as robots aren't fighting, such army is bound to lose.

Do you think Prussians were just "professional soldiers" without high levels of national pride?

It's because nationality/patrotism in the army trumps money. Look at US. When they need to get in a do a dirty job they contract a military private army. A war that doesn't have a cause it's a mercenary war. EU's army will be a mercenary army and it will be used against members states if they don't fall inline with the required policy!

[Slant]

So you have no response then? Got it.

When I say "people defeneded their home" and you ask me "You don't want people to care about their country", you're really being exceptionally obtuse. Even for the estimated high school grade education that I attributed you. So, how about you take your little junion high school attitude and let the big boys talk about interesting stuff instead of having me to explain shit to you that I said already in plain English, is that alright with you? Now, run along, sit in the corner and listen, you might learn something...

Btw, just to save you the effort, I am putting you on ignore, you've had your 10 minute of attention, I think that's enough for today and I don't want you to spam my reply notification list.

[Vorkreist]

Can you stop the nonsense already? You're trying to manipulate me like a high school student, it's embarassing to watch.

Whats embarrassing is your leftist non-sense. Nationalism =/= only the boogie men zealots inside your head.

[Slant]

It's because nationality/patrotism in the army trumps money. Look at US. When they need to get in a do a dirty job they contract a military private army. A war that doesn't have a cause it's a mercenary war. EU's army will be a mercenary army and it will be used against members states if they don't fall inline with the required policy!

The military won't have the authority to do anything within the EU. But hey, keep spinning those conspiracies. They sound funny...

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Whats embarrassing is your leftist non-sense. Nationalism =/= only the boogie men zealots inside your head.

I'm right wing actually. But hey, go fuck your opinion.