[BETA] Demonology Warlock Discussion

[Deleted]

I agree entirely. It especially hurts since it has such a long cooldown.

Long ramp up + demonic empowerment being clunky (Summon, empower, summon, empower, summon, empower, etc) + a big chunk of damage tied to a direct damage nuke with a long cooldown leads to demonology feeling off, in my opinion.

Starting with 5 shards (Or even 3), demonic empowerment buffing next X summons (Or something similar), and a chunk of damage being moved out of Consumption and on to the rest would do wonders for demonology I think.

well they could make demonic empowerment into a maintainable aura you have to keep up that buffs pets for as long as its up, basically making it like bloodpact that you need to cast every 12ish secs, just to give the spec somw wiggle room which i think is demo's greatest problem, its very rigid in its mechanics.

i certainly agree that starting with 3ish shards will help with its ramp up or give demo a mechanic like the old soul harvest, giving you a few shards b4 the pull.

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Did anyone else notice a big change in consumption's damage? Yesterday i was hitting for almost twice as much.

fairly sure consumption's dmg was bugged, if there is a change in its dmg then its most likely due to a bug fix.

[scrynlock]

Did anyone else notice a big change in consumption's damage? Yesterday i was hitting for almost twice as much.

it appears to have been hotfixed since last night, definitely doing substantially less damage than before and seems to be more reasonable numbers right now.. just need some other spells to be buffed to compensate damage loss, demo still looking fairly weak for damage output.

[wooters]

Sorry, Mythic raiding.

I understand there will be overlap with a fresher set of imps, but obviously if you're weaving implosions into a rotation, the best time to use it will be at the very end of one wave's duration. I'm really just curious about how much of a ST % dps loss implosion is. Obviously we can't be exact without tuning being done, but I'm curious if people have found implosion has been worth it just so we have some amount of actual aoe.

Yeah..at the end of one waves duration..and after a new hog. as the imps from "new hog" wouldn`t have the time to spawn before implosion snatch the old imps

[Ziriell]

Anyone tried that askmrrobot combat simulator? I kind of managed to pull the best numbers for Zakuun (single target) and Iskar (half single/half AoE) in results, but how informative are those? Numbers itself might be stupid, but what about rankings between specs and other things i am obviously missing?

[xuros]

Anyone tried that askmrrobot combat simulator? I kind of managed to pull the best numbers for Zakuun (single target) and Iskar (half single/half AoE) in results, but how informative are those? Numbers itself might be stupid, but what about rankings between specs and other things i am obviously missing?

Think youre lookig for http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Warlock-Guide or http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...EAD-FIRST-POST for that question. This is the Legion Beta thread.

[Zoopercat]

Hey Ziriell, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. One thing to note is that the rotations we have right now are not optimized. They are a first pass to give you a starting point to play with. For anyone who wants to improve on the rotations, here are two videos. And when you improve it, which I know you will, send me a link to it and we can update the default with what you have.

Also, we have a few WoD boss models for examples, but soon we'll release models for each of the Legion bosses. For now you can use the generic ST boss script (like patchwerk) or Iskaar for some AoE guestimating (like Ziriell did).

You can also hit us up in discord (chat program) for rotation questions.

[Smog]

Implosion Math

What are your thoughts about T100 talents when taking Implosion? Given that you are going to have fewer imps on average, it seems like taking Demonbolt is much less attractive. Soul Conduit is going to yield more casts of HoG and thus more Implosions, which (I would think) would yield even greater gains (or losses) in ST dps, depending upon gear.

From a purely qualitative standpoint, it feels like Soul Conduit works better than Demonbolt with Implosion. Even if they're roughly the same on ST, SC is almost certainly better for any kind of cleave or aoe.

Thoughts?

[Deleted]

Even in single target i find the Eye demon ( dont remeber his name) damage very good ( for me 1st damage source with 3+ target, and 3th source in single target ), + it has synergy with thakiel consumption

I think this talent will be a safe choice in all situations

[Woz]

What are your thoughts about T100 talents when taking Implosion? Given that you are going to have fewer imps on average, it seems like taking Demonbolt is much less attractive. Soul Conduit is going to yield more casts of HoG and thus more Implosions, which (I would think) would yield even greater gains (or losses) in ST dps, depending upon gear.

From a purely qualitative standpoint, it feels like Soul Conduit works better than Demonbolt with Implosion. Even if they're roughly the same on ST, SC is almost certainly better for any kind of cleave or aoe.

Thoughts?

Implosion doesn't lose basically any value with any combination of talents if you use it properly. You aren't exploding them as soon as they spawn, you are exploding them with like 3-4s remaining. So you basically get full duration of the imps and an Implosion.

[bio347]

I think that Soul Conduit might have some measure of anti-synergy with Implosion. The extra HoGs that you get from the extra shards would mean that you're forced to Implosion earlier in the imps' lifetimes. Of course, I suppose you're Implosioning more often, so relatively speaking it might also gain wrt Improved Dreadstalkers.

Also, I imagine the burst when you hit the four-shard jackpot and throw two back-to-back HoGs is pretty hilarious.

[Zinnin]

Implosion doesn't lose basically any value with any combination of talents if you use it properly. You aren't exploding them as soon as they spawn, you are exploding them with like 3-4s remaining. So you basically get full duration of the imps and an Implosion.

I think it's worth noting that you don't lose anything, but you also don't gain anything. For example if you are doing it correctly with Demonbolt, you aren't losing any pet count while you would be casting Demonbolt, but you aren't gaining the 2 Imps.

I think if you are going Demonbolt for single target then Improved Dreadstalkers will be slightly better. Implosion is still good for AoE waves though so I could see taking Demonbolt + Implosion for somethings, just not pure single target.

I do think that Soul Conduit + Implosion may be a viable single target build as well, just going to have more variance than Demonbolt.

[Woz]

I think it's worth noting that you don't lose anything, but you also don't gain anything. For example if you are doing it correctly with Demonbolt, you aren't losing any pet count while you would be casting Demonbolt, but you aren't gaining the 2 Imps.

I think if you are going Demonbolt for single target then Improved Dreadstalkers will be slightly better. Implosion is still good for AoE waves though so I could see taking Demonbolt + Implosion for somethings, just not pure single target.

I do think that Soul Conduit + Implosion may be a viable single target build as well, just going to have more variance than Demonbolt.

Yep. Exactly, the 'most optimal' way to play Implosion ST is neither gain or loss which I think is a good thing for a talent. Build variation is huge for Demo.

[Smog]

Yep. Exactly, the 'most optimal' way to play Implosion ST is neither gain or loss which I think is a good thing for a talent. Build variation is huge for Demo.

Pretty much exactly what I wanted to hear. Implosion is just so much fun and fills such a huge gaping hole for the spec that I really don't want to have to go without it. I'll happily take a few percentage points loss on ST at higher gear levels if necessary.

[Deleted]

Yep. Exactly, the 'most optimal' way to play Implosion ST is neither gain or loss which I think is a good thing for a talent. Build variation is huge for Demo.

Implosion does add the burst to target switching Demo lacks with it's basic kit. TC has a pretty long CD for that but might be enough on some fights.

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Implosion doesn't lose basically any value with any combination of talents if you use it properly. You aren't exploding them as soon as they spawn, you are exploding them with like 3-4s remaining. So you basically get full duration of the imps and an Implosion.

When the 4 IMPs deal like 160% SP/s damage with the 2 artifacts traits maxed, you will lose out on ST damage if you blow them up really early and you lack 2 imps/15s. 2 extra IMPs deal 20 bolts x 40SP = 800SP damage, the same as Implosion x4 imps. However as soon as you get 2 targets or can't wait 10 seconds for the imps to deal that damage, IMPlosion starts to look real good.

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Even in single target i find the Eye demon ( dont remeber his name) damage very good ( for me 1st damage source with 3+ target, and 3th source in single target ), + it has synergy with thakiel consumption

I think this talent will be a safe choice in all situations

Doesn't really have synergy with TC as it costs a shard that could be another IMP. Unless they removed the shardcost ofc.

[wooters]

Implosion doesn't lose basically any value with any combination of talents if you use it properly. You aren't exploding them as soon as they spawn, you are exploding them with like 3-4s remaining. So you basically get full duration of the imps and an Implosion.

problem is you basically always have a set of imps close to expire..and ofc also a set that are fresh or midway to expire, you then want to blow up the first set. a lot of imps would only get seconds to do their thing..you can`t have your cake and eat it too. (edit) maybe I misunderstood somewhat and you only talked about the first set of imps though. or something else idk lol

btw taking a peek at a raid meter yesterday, 30% of a demo locks dmg was from a perm. doomguard.. great for movement but I wouldn`t get comfortable with. it somehow doesn`t sit right that a single pet do so much a portion of our dmg. the chance to show ability goes down, which is a bummer for most players I would imagine..after a while

[Anoregon]

So are beta folks generally accepting/fine with the current rotation of casting demonic empowerment after every HoG and Dreadstalker cast? I know a lot of people find it a bit clunky/repetitive (myself included), and I am curious about the overall consensus and if it is something that has any chance of being changed at this point.

[Duckz0rs]

So are beta folks generally accepting/fine with the current rotation of casting demonic empowerment after every HoG and Dreadstalker cast? I know a lot of people find it a bit clunky/repetitive (myself included), and I am curious about the overall consensus and if it is something that has any chance of being changed at this point.

Most people posting about it don't seem to really like it, but don't seem to hate it either. Not really any chance of it being changed at this point as the mechanics are done, only number tweaks from here on out (per Blizzard's post on the latest build).

[wholol]

Most people posting about it don't seem to really like it, but don't seem to hate it either. Not really any chance of it being changed at this point as the mechanics are done, only number tweaks from here on out (per Blizzard's post on the latest build).

The rotation's fine, it feels clunky cause of cast times on key abilities, mainly being demonic empowerment and call dreadstalkers.

I believe if one or both of those spells is/are made instant cast it would feel much smoother playing the spec.

[Anoregon]

Yeah, that's a good point. I think insta-cast DE would likely make the rotation feel a good bit better. I'm still not thrilled about the mechanic of every HoG and dreadstalkers essentially being a 2-cast/GCD spell since DE is mandatory, but instant DE would definitely improve the situation.

[Duckz0rs]

The rotation's fine, it feels clunky cause of cast times on key abilities, mainly being demonic empowerment and call dreadstalkers.

I believe if one or both of those spells is/are made instant cast it would feel much smoother playing the spec.

Just to clarify my previous post:
I kind of purposely left my own opinion out of my post as I've only played Demo a little on the PTR, so I don't really have an opinion on it. Merely answered his question of what most people seem to think about the feel of the rotation; they don't hate it but would prefer changes. Proposed changes range from making DE instant to making DE a buff on the player.