[BETA] Destruction Warlock Discussion

[wholol]

I think Lord of Flames is the best path, after that Dimensional Ripper. Lord of Flames is just too stronk and traits on way to it are not bad at all aside from Life Tap. As for Single Target - Roaring Blaze is ridiculous.

I just don't understand why they didn't give this trait to demo instead, summoning several infernals seems more of a demo thing tbh.

Was hoping destro would be more focused on the actual single target abilities with the golden rings.

[Gaidax]

I just don't understand why they didn't give this trait to demo instead, summoning several infernals seems more of a demo thing tbh.

Was hoping destro would be more focused on the actual single target abilities with the golden rings.

Rain of Chaos is as Destruction as it gets. Also it is as Single Target as it gets, it has AoE component but it is also extremely strong single target - for me right now it is about 4-5 Chaos Bolts worth of damage. If we're talking AoE then it's even more hilarious.

I also find it extremely useful overall to have, if you make some shitty pull out questing (which can happen a lot in Suramar with the damned guards) - you can toss this thing in and you will basically kill all the rabble piling up on you.

But this is a pretty moot discussion IMO, we will have 2 gold traits anyway before raids unlock if you push just a tiny bit, or at the very least close to it and in any case gold trait is about 5% damage boost at best for raid encounters.


One thing I did not try is Conflagration of Chaos, it may be pretty powerful with T19 bonus and Roaring Blaze (as there is Immo damage boost on the way), but I think in any case Lord of Flames goes first - that one is no brainer once you try it.

[Fallensaint]

From what I've seen after I tested a bit after I got Lord of Flames, my doomguard did around 800k damage and the LoF infernals did 1.8 million on a boss dummy. So, it's definitely worth using on single-target burst, and very strong for burst AoE. Since it's also a nice 'oh shit!' button when leveling/soloing and relatively early in the tree with solid lesser traits leading up to it, it's definitely a strong contender for the optimal first gold trait. The bigger question would be what's the optimal second trait. Conflag of Chaos seems like the better trait, but Dimensional Ripper has better traits leading up to it.

[Ziriell]

Don't know if it's the right place to ask about prepatch, but: what do you think about Doom Nova trinket for destro? After toying at manequin for 1 hour with different talents and gear it kinda pulled the best numbers on single target with 3 1 1 1 2 2 2 for me. Open with pre-incinerate->Immolate->Conflagrate x2->Summon Doomguard and Service: Imp, if you get lucky to get 2 shards->place Eradication with Chaos Bolt->Channel Doomfire on Doom Nova proc. If not, then channel it right after summons. Then you just spend shards to place Eradication and burn it with Shadowburn and Doomfire. If stars align you get pretty solid numbers with Doomfire hitting Doom Nova while on Eradication. You may find yourself a bit shard hungry on pure single-target boss like Zakuun or Reaver (if you not killing bombs), but on a fights with multiple small buggers spawning constantly it will not be a problem at all, not to mention great target switching for important adds (like Void Stars duty) and Havoc while not losing practically anything if you need to Doomfire Doom Nova extra fast if it procs on non-boss target as Doomfire cast is very fast. Talking about Mythic, obviously. Thoughts?

[wholol]

Rain of Chaos is as Destruction as it gets. Also it is as Single Target as it gets, it has AoE component but it is also extremely strong single target - for me right now it is about 4-5 Chaos Bolts worth of damage. If we're talking AoE then it's even more hilarious.

I also find it extremely useful overall to have, if you make some shitty pull out questing (which can happen a lot in Suramar with the damned guards) - you can toss this thing in and you will basically kill all the rabble piling up on you.

But this is a pretty moot discussion IMO, we will have 2 gold traits anyway before raids unlock if you push just a tiny bit, or at the very least close to it and in any case gold trait is about 5% damage boost at best for raid encounters.


One thing I did not try is Conflagration of Chaos, it may be pretty powerful with T19 bonus and Roaring Blaze (as there is Immo damage boost on the way), but I think in any case Lord of Flames goes first - that one is no brainer once you try it.

I wasnt talking about the damage T_T

The theme leans more towards demo's playstyle,it being about demons and all.

[Baconeggcheese]

I think Lord of Flames is the best path, after that Dimensional Ripper. Lord of Flames is just too stronk and traits on way to it are not bad at all aside from Life Tap. As for Single Target - Roaring Blaze is ridiculous.

Rly? I was thinking more the dimensional ripper path, but not because of dimensional ripper since that trait seems pretty poop. But just because the traits leading up to it give 8% CB dmg, 12% incinerate dmg, and 15% chance to refund a shard which all seem fairly significant over the course of an entire encounter as opposed to lord of flames being a one and done.

I guess I could see the lord of flames path though since its only what 2700 to get to it? And you can pick up impish incineration right after for another lil constant boost.

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I wasnt talking about the damage T_T

The theme leans more towards demo's playstyle,it being about demons and all.

IIRC infernals are just constructs we make out of fel fire and not proper demons. But yeah rain of chaos has always been a destruction thing and is more fitting to destro.

The weird trait is soul flame, as that's also pretty damned destro yet for some reason aff has it.

[Deleted]

Rly? I was thinking more the dimensional ripper path, but not because of dimensional ripper since that trait seems pretty poop. But just because the traits leading up to it give 8% CB dmg, 12% incinerate dmg, and 15% chance to refund a shard which all seem fairly significant over the course of an entire encounter as opposed to lord of flames being a one and done.

I guess I could see the lord of flames path though since its only what 2700 to get to it? And you can pick up impish incineration right after for another lil constant boost.

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IIRC infernals are just constructs we make out of fel fire and not proper demons. But yeah rain of chaos has always been a destruction thing and is more fitting to destro.

The weird trait is soul flame, as that's also pretty damned destro yet for some reason aff has it.

Well they are all warlock spells and in the stories, warlocks don't have specs . Raining pets from the sky does sound like demo to me, because pets . Demonology to me should use both shadow and flame.

[wholol]

IIRC infernals are just constructs we make out of fel fire and not proper demons. But yeah rain of chaos has always been a destruction thing and is more fitting to destro.

The weird trait is soul flame, as that's also pretty damned destro yet for some reason aff has it.

All I know is that the nathrezim can summon them besides locks, nothing seems to indicate they belong to anything destro related, besides the fact that they are infused with fel of course, but we can also summon an infernal with any of the other specs so thats why I feel demo has the upper hand with this one.

As for the talent's place if we swap lord of flames ( give it to demo ),soul flame ( to destro ), and thalkiel's discord ( to affliction , with a name change obviously), they would fit the playstyle of each the respective specs better.

[Gaidax]

Rly? I was thinking more the dimensional ripper path, but not because of dimensional ripper since that trait seems pretty poop. But just because the traits leading up to it give 8% CB dmg, 12% incinerate dmg, and 15% chance to refund a shard which all seem fairly significant over the course of an entire encounter as opposed to lord of flames being a one and done.

I guess I could see the lord of flames path though since its only what 2700 to get to it? And you can pick up impish incineration right after for another lil constant boost.

Impish Incineration and Burning Hunger are both extremely powerful and as you noticed - path to Lord of Flames is very short and gives you the biggest bang for your buck ASAP. Besides think about it - before raids unlock dropping Lord of Flames in Mythic+X encounter is much much stronger than alternative is, like BRH Mythic+X last boss 2nd phase when you get a damage buff - it's total lolcakes - you will literally do double deeps than everyone else. I'm not even talking about World Quests and world questing in general where dropping this nuclear bomb saved my ass quite a few times.

Impish Incineration is especially powerful if you use Sacrifice (which you will a lot), being a 50% boost to it. And Burning Hunger will give you quite a bit more shards than a shard refund from Chaotic Instability will, I am not even talking how much both those will boost your single target DPS with Service/Roaring Blaze spec.

[Baconeggcheese]

Impish Incineration and Burning Hunger are both extremely powerful and as you noticed - path to Lord of Flames is very short and gives you the biggest bang for your buck ASAP. Besides think about it - before raids unlock dropping Lord of Flames in Mythic+X encounter is much much stronger than alternative is, like BRH Mythic+X last boss 2nd phase when you get a damage buff - it's total lolcakes - you will literally do double deeps than everyone else. I'm not even talking about World Quests and world questing in general where dropping this nuclear bomb saved my ass quite a few times.

Impish Incineration is especially powerful if you use Sacrifice (which you will a lot), being a 50% boost to it. And Burning Hunger will give you quite a bit more shards than a shard refund from Chaotic Instability will, I am not even talking how much both those will boost your single target DPS with Service/Roaring Blaze spec.

Does lord of flames reset on boss kills for dungeons? I could see that if that's the case.

Well they are all warlock spells and in the stories, warlocks don't have specs . Raining pets from the sky does sound like demo to me, because pets . Demonology to me should use both shadow and flame.

They're technically constructs though, not demons. So I don't get why you think they would make more sense to be part of demonology when they're really just fire golems that we animated and we have a spec dedicated to controlling that fire.

[Gaidax]

Lord of Flames is a debuff. It resets when you die, it also surprisingly resets on raid boss kill but not on dungeon boss kill.

In Mythic +X you can usually use it 3 times, unless you die, in which case you may as well use it 10 times - some BRH packs are very nasty, as matter of fact, in BRH I advise to use it on specific trash packs because they are by far biggest challenge there, while bosses are mostly a joke.

[JV Chequer]

I think Lord of Flames is the best path, after that Dimensional Ripper. Lord of Flames is just too stronk and traits on way to it are not bad at all aside from Life Tap. As for Single Target - Roaring Blaze is ridiculous.

Roaring Blaze it's really that good? WOW....I'm INDEED missing something about it. I was using Backdraft whole time but anyways we will use Shadowburn most of times on add fights.

I wonder on cleaving how good it's dumping 6 Shadowburn on Havoc instead of 3 Chaos Bolts on duration to worthwhile the Roaring Blaze drop.

And about pathing Artifact I'm now pretty sure I'm going DR because secondaries traits than Lord of Flames but after that I'm not sure if it's worth taking Impish Incineration right after Lord of Flames, after Conflagration of Chaos or After Dimensional Ripper. Besides that everything else looks pretty solid as a choide.

[Dastey]

Roaring Blaze it's really that good? WOW....I'm INDEED missing something about it. I was using Backdraft whole time but anyways we will use Shadowburn most of times on add fights.

I wonder on cleaving how good it's dumping 6 Shadowburn on Havoc instead of 3 Chaos Bolts on duration to worthwhile the Roaring Blaze drop.

And about pathing Artifact I'm now pretty sure I'm going DR because secondaries traits than Lord of Flames but after that I'm not sure if it's worth taking Impish Incineration right after Lord of Flames, after Conflagration of Chaos or After Dimensional Ripper. Besides that everything else looks pretty solid as a choide.

It is essentially the conflagrate tier (lvl 15 talents).
Backdraft is by default the better option, but when you get +24% immolate crit artifact trait and +18% immolate damage on top of tier 19 2 piece bonus then Roaring Blaze is starting to look mighty fine. Simulationcraft will show us the actual numbers. But those 3 things combined is definitely screaming Roaring Blaze, despite Backdraft also benefitting from 2 piece bonus.

In regards to Impish Incineration I would say it's almost worth taking before you go to any other trait, as you can get it really early on, and imp is generally around 18% of your damage and demonic power around 15% from what I have been seing (higher on aoe fights)

[Baconeggcheese]

Roaring Blaze it's really that good?

When I did star augur testing immolate was doing 21% of my dmg and was easily top. Granted I *think* that was before they nerfed the immolate traits.

It's pretty damned strong either way.

Lord of Flames is a debuff. It resets when you die, it also surprisingly resets on raid boss kill but not on dungeon boss kill.

In Mythic +X you can usually use it 3 times, unless you die, in which case you may as well use it 10 times - some BRH packs are very nasty, as matter of fact, in BRH I advise to use it on specific trash packs because they are by far biggest challenge there, while bosses are mostly a joke.

If there's any frequency of people intentionally killing themselves to reset it I imagine it'll likely see changes. So I'm not leaning on that too much.

That's unfortunate that it doesn't reset on dungeon boss kills. I knew it reset on raid bosses from testing but yeah, definitely removes some of its usefulness if you have to wait out the full 10 minutes.

[Rogalicus]

I don't know about Lord of Flames itself, though it seems like a good burst, but I believe immolate traits on the path to it are totally worth it, even if that golden trait is shit.

[JV Chequer]

Imp nerfed by 10%. DG nerfed by 5%. Gosac intensifies.

[Gaidax]

Good, it should make GoSac more viable for single target, although it is still not as good.

Do not see DG nerf though, not even sure there is anything to nerf for Destruction that is.

Service will still be single target king.

[Dastey]

From Wowhead:
Doom Bolt Sends a shadowy bolt at the enemy, causing (190% of Spell power) down from (200% of Spell power) Shadow damage. Deals 20% additional damage to targets below 20% health.
Firebolt Deals (82% of Spell power) down from (90.7% of Spell power) Fire damage to a target.
Fel Firebolt Deals (14% of Spell power) up from (13% of Spell power) Fire damage to a target. (I'm not really sure if this is the warlock pet as it seems like a very small amount of damage compared to the regular imp

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Warning: Napkin math

So there has been a lot of talk of the proc rate of Demonic Power. So I decided to go over some logs from anomaly this sunday. Use these numbers for what you want. They may not be useable in any way. But to me it seems like you can expect a procc of Demonic power roughly every 2 seconds.

Imp does 82 % (*1.5 from immolate + *1.18 from artifact) on a 1.8 second cast time so every minute that is 4838 % spell power
Assuming 30 proccs per minute of Demonic Power that is 4500 % spell power
So a loss of 338 % spell power

I have no idea about the numbers of service but I think it was 25 seconds every 90 seconds that deals 100% increased damage. That would be 14 casts of 290 % damage being a total of 4064 %, making it 2709 % spell power every minute

In short:
Demonic power: 4500 % Spell power per minute
Imp Service: 7547 % Spell power per minute
Which indicates as long as there are 2 targets in close proximity Demonic Power will be worth it

Try	Length	Procs	Procs per minute
Try 1	80	39	29.25
Try 2	90	47	31.33
Try 3	90	42	28
Try 4	105	55	31.43
Try 5	90	42	28
Try 6	130	66	30.46
Try 7	60	29	29
Total	645	320	29.77

EDIT: Added artifact bonus

[Gaidax]

You are forgetting artifact bonuses (+50% to Demonic Power against +18% to Imp) and the fact that imp does not really cast every 1.8 seconds because it runs out of energy and tends to stand there looking funny for quite a bit.

Single target Demonic Power is about equal to having Imp out, maybe even tiny bit better. However Service active is the deal breaker in this balance here and thus Service is just better at single target.

[Dastey]

Ok I added the artifact bonuses and changed imp damage under the presumption of a cast time of 1.8 s

If we look at live Imp generates roughly 10 fel energy per second and uses 40 for it's attack, making the cast time essentially 4 seconds and then the numbers would look something like this:

Imp does 82 % (*1.5 from immolate + *1.18 from artifact) on a 4 second cast time so every minute that is 2177 % spell power
Assuming 30 proccs per minute of Demonic Power that is 4500 % spell power
So a gain of 2323 % spell power

The service imp casts 9 times every 90 seconds. Which would be 9 * 290% Spell power damage. Making it 1740 % Spell power every minute

With these numbers Demonic Power at the above procc rate would be 583 % of Spell Power better than the Service imp

However on live where I have no lag and if I add Imps firebolt to my abilities as a macro that changes things for the normal imp as it will cast every time I click instead of pooling (but ofcourse it will run out of energy and start casting every 4 seconds). The Service Imp isn't controlable so nothing to do here, but on live the service Imp just casts 14 times anyways

In this scenario, which I think is how it will look with low ms, where Service imp casts 14 times that would make Service 383 % of Spell Power better than Demonic Power on single target.

So at 70.000 spell power (which seemed to be my average number in 898 gear) that would be a difference of 4468 DPS (and then you can add crit if you want to.