Reduced Zoom in Legion

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Not essentially, a good argument means you bring points worth considering. It doesn't mean they remain solid under scrutiny.

You and I have different definitions of good.

[Deleted]

Anyone who is using the argument of it providing a competitive advantage is drinking the cool aid. It's a bullshit excuse. It may provide a very SLIGHT advantage, but if it was truly significant then Blizzard would have fixed it AGES ago. Blizzard isn't always the best when it comes to balance, but they certainly weed out when shit is broken pretty quickly. If they believed that this camera zoom was significant they would've changed it long ago.

Also, they are being hypocritical considering that they are adding the action cam to the game which zooms in your character and changes the placement of your character in the frame. If information is the advantage, then people using the action cam will be at a disadvantage compared to people using the default zoom. But of course Blizzard I'm sure that Blizzard would say it's fine, since it's just an option. Despite the fact that the enhanced zoom was just an option and anyone could use it.

I'm pretty sure it was a demand of the artists. I've seen this story played before in another game concerning restricting the graphics to high settings. It was the mappers that insisted.

[Deleted]

Increases your vision, allows you to see more incoming damage, gives you more time to react. If you still just stand there, sure, you don't improve. That's true of anything.

False. Keybinds reduce the time spent looking at buttons, input from the mouse, etc...all equating to more time focusing on you FoV and fight mechanics. It also allows for smoother casting on instant/CDs instead of having to move your mouse over the next button, allowing you to queue and fire off spells quicker. It's just objective numbers.

This is like saying that running 100m isn't faster than walking 100m. It's just patently false.

Your reason for being better with more zoom is not true. This is a tab target game, you don't see damage coming at you unless is an ability to avoid, which is perfect to avoid in a raid encounter with the default zoom, even as a melee (and I am living proof of that).

Regarding keybinds, you are the perfect example of why splitting posts is a bad thing. Considering you need to delete what I wrote, I would have assumed you would have read it all. Clearly not. I will copy/paste my post you were quoting (in its entirety) below:

I play a warrior DPS, melee, I clear mythic, and I just use the standard wow ui zoom. There is no "you play better by being zoomed out that far" it's a matter of preference. I don't see it as a "need" or "improved gameplay". My point is that regardless how far you are zoomed in/out it won't make you a better player. It's a preference to playstyle (similar to how people use different keybinds, no set of keybinds will make you a better player).

See the part in bold? The part you deleted. Yea, next time read so you don't embarrass yourself. If you fail to comprehend what I put in bold to highlight, let me know and I may be able to explain that one sentence even more for you.

[Deleted]

While the new adjusted max distance is workable enough, I'm not in favor of this approach, I'd much rather see the slider going all the way up to the current max. The design argument rings rather hollow, considering that the game handled current max distance just fine, and honestly it's an option many people got used to...

[Kelimbror]

Your reason for being better with more zoom is not true. This is a tab target game, you don't see damage coming at you unless is an ability to avoid, which is perfect to avoid in a raid encounter with the default zoom, even as a melee (and I am living proof of that).

'Perfect' no. Perfect means you can see it as soon as it or any indication of it appears in the world. In your haste to 'win' the internet, you're tripping over yourself. I mean you already provided your own doubt. You have to be objective or you simply fail to have true discourse and instead are just offering your personal playstyle as the only playstyle. Yet you think I am dumb for 'not reading' your post.

I read your post. Quoting entire walls of text is bad, but I also didn't fully express what I was trying to say. I was responding to both you and the person talking about mouse clicking earlier. Since you want to be a special snowflake, yes, certain keybinds will make you a better player. As my good friend Naruto says, "Believe it".

If you have everything bound to the number keys, but don't use an MMO mouse, do you think it takes as much time to reach up and press '9' as it does to press keys around 'wasd'? What about using shift/ctrl modifiers? Do you think people who can more quickly access neighboring keys don't have the potential to do better than those using some other method? And then if you want to go arg absurdum, I can say people use binds only on the other side of their keyboard.

I mean really...thinking that all the things you can do to increase performance doesn't allow you to be a better player is asinine. Do you also think adjusting DPI settings doesn't make you a better RTS or FPS player? Same thing. I'm glad I could give you your 5 minutes of fame. Have a great day.

[Kibster]

Maybe I'm alone in this thought, but when I'm raiding I prefer to feel like I'm in an epic 20-man encounter, not just myself, a few melee, the boss's feet, and some invisible healer. I like being able to see boss's cast animations instead of just listening to DBM yelling at me. I want to see my guild mate getting burned in the fire, not just see it on meters afterwards.

This change really kills the immersion of raids and other large-scale encounters, and instead pushes more reliance on add-ons and UI features.

[Unir]

While the new adjusted max distance is workable enough, I'm not in favor of this approach, I'd much rather see the slider going all the way up to the current max. The design argument rings rather hollow, considering that the game handled current max distance just fine, and honestly it's an option many people got used to...

At worst they just need to come up with a compromise. Make camera distance 50 only usable while in a raid group, for instance, since raiding is the one place it truly hurts to take it away. Make it a setting with the other camera settings, so everyone can see it and use it. Simple, done. Keep the other max zoom for non-raid time, good compromise. Keeps the artists happy, saves them some face, and keeps raiders happy.

They cannot seriously even try to argue that seeing "the game's beautiful architecture" or whatever else bullshit Ion said is necessary or even possible while Mythic Archimonde is beating on your face or dropping infernals on your head. If you're raiding and looking at the architecture while you work on bosses, you're doing it wrong.

[Deleted]

'Perfect' no. Perfect means you can see it as soon as it or any indication of it appears in the world. In your haste to 'win' the internet, you're tripping over yourself. I mean you already provided your own doubt. You have to be objective or you simply fail to have true discourse and instead are just offering your personal playstyle as the only playstyle. Yet you think I am dumb for 'not reading' your post.

I read your post. Quoting entire walls of text is bad, but I also didn't fully express what I was trying to say. I was responding to both you and the person talking about mouse clicking earlier. Since you want to be a special snowflake, yes, certain keybinds will make you a better player. As my good friend Naruto says, "Believe it".

If you have everything bound to the number keys, but don't use an MMO mouse, do you think it takes as much time to reach up and press '9' as it does to press keys around 'wasd'? What about using shift/ctrl modifiers? Do you think people who can more quickly access neighboring keys don't have the potential to do better than those using some other method? And then if you want to go arg absurdum, I can say people use binds only on the other side of their keyboard.

I mean really...thinking that all the things you can do to increase performance doesn't allow you to be a better player is asinine. Do you also think adjusting DPI settings doesn't make you a better RTS or FPS player? Same thing. I'm glad I could give you your 5 minutes of fame. Have a great day.

Oh no of course you are right. A mythic raider, who doesn't use it clearly is not an objective view point. If you actually read what I wrote, and you have quoted, I said it is a personal playstyle preference. Which brings me to my next point. Since I have said twice now, I think, I said "playstyle preference". On what planet does that mean my playstyle is the only one? It clearly indicates I know others play differently. If it was not obvious, I do object to Blizz's reasons for it because being zoomed out does not give anyone an advantage (beyond the basic UI limits).

You also used a quote (mine, never even mentioned clickers till now) that has nothing to do with clicking as a reference for clicking? And you call me "dumb" lol you are also going off topic horribly. I assume English is not your first language so I will dumb it down for you into a nice wee summary.

I do not agree with the change to the camera, purely on the context of the reason for it as I fail to see how zooming out more beyond the default settings is a benefit and nothing more than a playstyle preference. Regarding keybinds, I do believe they have an advantage over clickers. I have never said they didn't.

There, was that easier to understand?

And WTF does "win the Internet" even mean?

[Kelimbror]

Oh no of course you are right.

I know, but I didn't need the extra validation. Thanks anyways. I don't really think either of us are talking about the same thing, so there's nothing to say to you further. Good luck on your future efforts to 'prove' things.

Maybe I'm alone in this thought, but when I'm raiding I prefer to feel like I'm in an epic 20-man encounter, not just myself, a few melee, the boss's feet, and some invisible healer. I like being able to see boss's cast animations instead of just listening to DBM yelling at me. I want to see my guild mate getting burned in the fire, not just see it on meters afterwards.

I try not to hop on conspiracy bandwagons, but jokingly maybe this is their attempt to save art time by not needing to make anything beyond boss leg models. Maybe Ragnaros went on a crusade about all dem legs and feet. Who knows? But seriously I agree with your opinion.

[judgementofantonidas]

So in Legion the console zoom commands like "/console CameraDistanceMaxFactor 4" is removed, they slightly increased the zoom range in the default UI options but not even close to what the console could do.

Ions response - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745744692#18
Ion doing an example pic of new max zoom - http://i.imgur.com/e8vFT6t.jpg

How will this affect something like raiding with huge ass bosses, encounters where people have to spread but as a healer you still want to be able to see everyone etc, what about meeles having 90% of their screen filled by a big dragon. Or just in general.

gotta answer this with an old adage my father used to use.

do you know what the white is on top of bird shit?

more bird shit.

Blizzard is feeding us one dollop of bird shit after another till we won't even differentiate between all the bird shit on our shoulders and decent content.

[Deleted]

The maximum zoom distance was already more than enough.

Subjective (see what I did there?).

[Hunter Gnome]

As a Gnome Tank, I only ever get to see them from the knees down. I would have to zoom out to Dalaran

[Strangebrew]

Lmao, are the people at blizz making these decisions mentally challenged or something.
What an utterly and fucking idiotic decision, jesus fuck this company.

[Syenite]

Lmao, are the people at blizz making these decisions mentally challenged or something.
What an utterly and fucking idiotic decision, jesus fuck this company.

Seems like they only go for the logically inclined.

[Deleted]

I know, but I didn't need the extra validation. Thanks anyways. I don't really think either of us are talking about the same thing, so there's nothing to say to you further. Good luck on your future efforts to 'prove' things.

We never were but you felt the need to quote me in the first place.....

[Tharkkun]

An advantage for what? Looking in canals?

The players who are competitive all know about it. The players who aren't won't know what this is about.

I'm not super invested either way. I mostly tank, so I will notice the change, and it will affect my ability to do my job well, but I'll just chalk it up to another game challenge. The size of the boss will be one of his mechanics, e.g., Mannoroth has the power to blind tanks to what's going on around them. For WoD and all previous expansions, we had a work-around for this; in Legion we won't. I'll cope. Probably have to depend more on team mates to call stuff out for me. Guess that's what teams are for.

But his argument that they needed to change due to competitive disadvantage is silly. Using max camera distance has been as ubiquitous as DBM. If you're going to take away one, may as well take away both.

Watcher doesn't seem like the type of person to blow smoke up our asses though. He's pretty blunt about the things he says even if we disagree. So the fact that he said it means there must be as reason even though he didn't go into much detail about it.

[RedGamer030]

Subjective (see what I did there?).

Yeah, and I am glad someone figured it out. Do I like playing fully zoomed out to the maximum? No. Do I think it was too much? Yes. Do I think the maximum should have been reduced? No. Players deserve to choose.

[Hexxidecimal]

Not my screenie but here is a screen shot of what large bosses will look like now that max zoom is disabled.

http://i.imgur.com/CbTqPpC.jpg

[Kraineth]

Watcher doesn't seem like the type of person to blow smoke up our asses though. He's pretty blunt about the things he says even if we disagree. So the fact that he said it means there must be as reason even though he didn't go into much detail about it.

Correction

Watcher used to no seem like the type of person to blow smoke up our asses.

Seriously, the guy is by far my favorite public figure fir Blizzard. But his whole post doesn't sound like something a former hardcore raider would say. Chances are, this decision was either not up to him at all, or not something he agrees with, or both.

You can see this reflected in his recent post about world quests/dungeons giving small chances at powerful gear here:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4759?page=2#33

This is a great example of defending your ideas that you believe in. He addresses the problem by telling people to realize that the chance of actually getting the crazy piece of gear is astronomical. But the fact that there is even a chance at all is a positive thing for the entire game.

I've already heard rumors that the camera distance change has been met with a lot of internal resistance. If there is actually a legitimate reason that it need to be done, like they are working on something that zooming out to far completely ruins, then fine. But they should give us a specific reason why it has to be this way. And I really doubt that there is.

[Keniwa]

Thats it for me, if this is not reverted I will not be playing Legion. If I have to sacrifice my gameplay because they think they know what is best for me. I'm out