Blizzard Seems Intent On Making Healing Classes No Fun To Play. Why?

[Delekii]

The only slot that is static is the weapon and offhand. Otherwise gear is business as usual. But technically you leveled your weapon every expansion as well. Just in a different format. You had to continuously pray your weapon dropped in an instance and that you won it whether through /random or personal loot. You also had to do the same for offspec weapons (and even gear) which means you were at a disadvantage just like you will be today except for the artifact.

No, you didn't. None of those weapons had any bearing on end game. None of the gear had or has any bearing on end game. The artifact is literally the only item in its class; the only item in existence who's progression starts before max level.

After you raid week is over you can still go out in the world and quest, kill, farm, etc. for items that boost your relic power and apply it to the spec of your choice. You're no longer completely handcuffed once the weekly lockout is finished or progression hit a roadblock.

Which means that you can never catch up to another person playing the same amount of time as you, if you put points into an "offspec" weapon.

[quote]Go read this as well. https://healiocentric.wordpress.com/...-wont-believe/

Doing more reading it's basically the consensus that you'll place 13 artifact points, then do your 2nd artifact since point 14 is more expensive than all 13 points of a second artifact. Also noted is that once you max your artifact outside of the passive .5% boosts, you could dump all your artifact power into a 2nd artifact to max it's traits. Your only loss would be 1.5% of passive damage to your primary artifact.

People are really getting more worried than is necessary.

- - - Updated - - -He's right; I don't believe it. Mostly because it isn't true.

While you’re leveling, the only relevant stat on a Relic is the item level boost it will give you. There’s no leveling content that will be made significantly easier by having an extra rank in one minor trait compared to another.

Shall we go through some of the more pertinent relic traits that some classes can get at the start of their relics?

Im not even going to talk about the golden dragons, lets just talk about passives that we might get within the points, that we won't have as dps leveling a healer weapon.

Frost DK gets, within the 14 points you are talking about: 8% attack speed, 30% howling blast damage, 30% oblit crit damage, 6% pillar of frost damage, 8 yard range on frost strike, death strike heals for 300% more during IBF, 9% frost damage.

Let's look at dps specs healers are likely to use... I'm just picking the first 14 points that seem useful, not even considering potential impact of golden dragons you don't have.

Balance: 6% damage on wrath and starfire. 18% crit chance on starsurge. 5 yard increased radius on sunfire. 75% armor in moonkin form. Reduced interrupt cooldown. Chance to heal yourself 360% spellpower when taking damage.

Windwalker: 15% BOK damage, 9% RSK damage, Touch of karma heals you, increased chance of free BOKs by 6%, 10% increased sck, 30% max hp heal every 20sec.

Ret: 15% crusader strike damage, 24% divine hamer/boj damage, 18% crit chance on zeal, 7.5 seconds longer avenging wrath, increase damage of judgement by 45%.

Shadow: 20% mindflay damage, 15% mindblast, 30sec less on dispersion, 50% hp heal during dispersion, 10% death damage, 18% swp damage.

Ele shaman: 15% lightning bolt, 15% chain lightning, 15% flame shock damage, significantly shorter fire elemental cooldown, 10% lava burst damage, 45% surge healing

Do any of these sets of buffs really sound "not meaningful"? You either choose not to have these while leveling, or you choose not to have your healer versions when you hit 110, or a combination of both. In previous iterations, you could choose to take shadow weapons while leveling, and your position when hitting max level and changing to holy would be essentially the same.

It happens every expansion. The first tier is rough as you get used to change and then it smooths out from there.

It doesn't happen every expansion. This has literally never happened before. If you want an analogue that is remotely close to this, it would be like having the MoP perks only unlock for the spec you are playing on, and having to play that much over again to unlock them on your second and third specs. You level as ele shaman? You get no resto perks until you get to max level and run 15 dungeons. Enjoy. It's nonsense to say that it isn't impactful which ever way you choose to go. Your leveling or your early time at max level are definitionally gimped.

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A lot of posters in this thread seem really determined to hang on to negative preconceptions regardless of any other input...so I'm not going to engage here much. I'll leave you to your doom and gloom.

I will say that from Alpha to now, I've leveled in healing specs, in dps specs, and as specs focused on "I am going to play dps but put my artifact points into my healing weapon". It was all just fine. Some of you are putting a very unrealistic emphasis on the relative power of putting points into the artifact weapon while leveling. You're forgetting that the real power doesn't start to manifest until after we hit 110.

It's not unrealistic emphasis, and to state as much means you don't really understand math. I'm glad you think it's "fine"; perhaps mediocrity suits you (and the blog poster).

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It's not, but at this point you are arguing for the sake of arguing. You don't want to believe that healers will be fine to level up, so you won't listen to anyone telling you otherwise. You can go ahead and keep wallowing in the negativity, I guess, but nothing's going to change by doing that. The rest of us will just use the alternatives available and enjoy our way to 110 as healers without any issues.

It's not that I don't believe that they are fine; it's that fine is not good enough. You could halve their dps again from where they are and they would still be "fine"; they would be able to quest from 100 to 110 and wouldn't die and would eventually level. That isn't a leveling experience that I can believe anyone enjoys, and certainly not one that I think is worthy of praise.

I seriously doubt anyone enjoys their way to 110 even if they have no issues. If you enjoy dpsing as a healer, I have a rock and a hammer you can play with if you like.

[dexx]

Reading through the official Beta forums, there seems to be more complaints about Legion, and the choices Blizz has made, than any other expansion!

[Deleted]

Reading through the official Beta forums, there seems to be more complaints about Legion, and the choices Blizz has made, than any other expansion!

Nah people are whiny bitches before every expansion :P And alot of the posts people are whining about stuff that they havent even done any research on or tried.

[Foj]

=
If there is one thing i rather find unfun about healing is that they removed spirit. I liked playing around with my spirit and swiching between diffrent spirit levels on diffrent fights. I even tried legion lfr, and even tho i am 108 and got boosted up to lvl 110 and a certain ilvl, i went oom super fast with not even healing that much. Maybe it wont be a huge deal with gear later on, i hope not.

They could always add a (secondary or tertiary) stat called "Regeneration" on gear that increases the rate of regeneration of some useful resource, or does something else for some specs, a la Mastery. It would still leave different specs able to use the same rings, cloaks, et cetera.

[Saravat]

It's not unrealistic emphasis, and to state as much means you don't really understand math. I'm glad you think it's "fine"; perhaps mediocrity suits you (and the blog poster).

Here's some straightforward feedback for you: when the only thing you can manage to do is collapse into insults when people courteously present information you don't agree with, you end up looking like someone utterly incapable of handling a discussion.

[Ripitgood]

It's always easier to mock people for things they obviously aren't saying rather than respond to what they are. I'm talking about the loss of utility and the sheer dullness of leveling as a healer.

First, Let me say I've not read any of your other responses past this. Second, I do NOT play a healer, There was a stent back in LK as a Resto druid, but it never sticks at end game or leveling for reasons.

With that being said any sort of experience I've EVER had as a healer not at max level has been dull, boring, tedious, and some times (if we traveled back a few xpacs) near freaking impossible.

I'm not sure what you mean in "loss of utility and the sheer dullness of leveling as a healer". Dullness comes from not being able to do it. You can now - Check
"loss of utility" - What? What are you saying, What utility have you lost? You DPS now, along with being able to heal like always. You do ACTUAL respectable dmg to mobs while still being a healer, queuing dungeons as you level as a healer, ramping up artifact as a healer.

I understand you have some issues, but could you get a bit more specific than "loss of utility and sheer dullness? WHAT are those things to you. Then maybe someone here can offer some advice otherwise, Basically 99.9% of healers all agree the changes they've made are GREAT. And you're one of the very small group who see otherwise, and I doubt anything will change or anyone will much care man .

So please, explain the issue!

[Hexxidecimal]

[QUOTE=Delekii;41109660]No, you didn't. None of those weapons had any bearing on end game. None of the gear had or has any bearing on end game. The artifact is literally the only item in its class; the only item in existence who's progression starts before max level.

Which means that you can never catch up to another person playing the same amount of time as you, if you put points into an "offspec" weapon.

Go read this as well. https://healiocentric.wordpress.com/...-wont-believe/

Doing more reading it's basically the consensus that you'll place 13 artifact points, then do your 2nd artifact since point 14 is more expensive than all 13 points of a second artifact. Also noted is that once you max your artifact outside of the passive .5% boosts, you could dump all your artifact power into a 2nd artifact to max it's traits. Your only loss would be 1.5% of passive damage to your primary artifact.

People are really getting more worried than is necessary.

- - - Updated - - -He's right; I don't believe it. Mostly because it isn't true.


Shall we go through some of the more pertinent relic traits that some classes can get at the start of their relics?

Im not even going to talk about the golden dragons, lets just talk about passives that we might get within the points, that we won't have as dps leveling a healer weapon.

Frost DK gets, within the 14 points you are talking about: 8% attack speed, 30% howling blast damage, 30% oblit crit damage, 6% pillar of frost damage, 8 yard range on frost strike, death strike heals for 300% more during IBF, 9% frost damage.

Let's look at dps specs healers are likely to use... I'm just picking the first 14 points that seem useful, not even considering potential impact of golden dragons you don't have.

Balance: 6% damage on wrath and starfire. 18% crit chance on starsurge. 5 yard increased radius on sunfire. 75% armor in moonkin form. Reduced interrupt cooldown. Chance to heal yourself 360% spellpower when taking damage.

Windwalker: 15% BOK damage, 9% RSK damage, Touch of karma heals you, increased chance of free BOKs by 6%, 10% increased sck, 30% max hp heal every 20sec.

Ret: 15% crusader strike damage, 24% divine hamer/boj damage, 18% crit chance on zeal, 7.5 seconds longer avenging wrath, increase damage of judgement by 45%.

Shadow: 20% mindflay damage, 15% mindblast, 30sec less on dispersion, 50% hp heal during dispersion, 10% death damage, 18% swp damage.

Ele shaman: 15% lightning bolt, 15% chain lightning, 15% flame shock damage, significantly shorter fire elemental cooldown, 10% lava burst damage, 45% surge healing

Do any of these sets of buffs really sound "not meaningful"? You either choose not to have these while leveling, or you choose not to have your healer versions when you hit 110, or a combination of both. In previous iterations, you could choose to take shadow weapons while leveling, and your position when hitting max level and changing to holy would be essentially the same.



It doesn't happen every expansion. This has literally never happened before. If you want an analogue that is remotely close to this, it would be like having the MoP perks only unlock for the spec you are playing on, and having to play that much over again to unlock them on your second and third specs. You level as ele shaman? You get no resto perks until you get to max level and run 15 dungeons. Enjoy. It's nonsense to say that it isn't impactful which ever way you choose to go. Your leveling or your early time at max level are definitionally gimped.

- - - Updated - - -



It's not unrealistic emphasis, and to state as much means you don't really understand math. I'm glad you think it's "fine"; perhaps mediocrity suits you (and the blog poster).

- - - Updated - - -



It's not that I don't believe that they are fine; it's that fine is not good enough. You could halve their dps again from where they are and they would still be "fine"; they would be able to quest from 100 to 110 and wouldn't die and would eventually level. That isn't a leveling experience that I can believe anyone enjoys, and certainly not one that I think is worthy of praise.

I seriously doubt anyone enjoys their way to 110 even if they have no issues. If you enjoy dpsing as a healer, I have a rock and a hammer you can play with if you like.

So I am curious as to what you actually want? The same DPS as a DPS then? The ability to have all your DPS Artifact bonuses while still having all your healing artifact bonuses? These two things seem more than a bit unreasonable to me. I guess the question is what is your solution to this issue? I personally like the idea of playing a DPS Spec but putting my points into my healing artifact. The spec itself is what will determine most of my damage output. I won't melt things as fast as someone with a few more passives unlocked sure, but I doubt it's going to be necessary and dps wise I will be like 90%-95% of my possible output. Then a dungeon pops and I switch But that could just me making the best of things.

[trm90]

Nah people are whiny bitches before every expansion :P And alot of the posts people are whining about stuff that they havent even done any research on or tried.

To sum up the Beta forums in a nutshell:

- 85+ pages of Retribution Paladins claiming their class is too easy
- Everyone thinks they don't have enough defensives or utility, even though they have been nerfed across the board
- If someone's not topping AOE or ST, they'll impolitely demand huge buffs to compensate
- "Clunky"

[Nihilan]

To sum up the Beta forums in a nutshell:

- 85+ pages of Retribution Paladins claiming their class is too easy
- Everyone thinks they don't have enough defensives or utility, even though they have been nerfed across the board
- If someone's not topping AOE or ST, they'll impolitely demand huge buffs to compensate
- "Clunky"

Ret is easy. But then none of the dps specs are hard. Ret also has tremendous self healing compared to a lot of other dps specs. They are one of the very few dps specs that have the survivability to solo boss elites like certain tanks can. They have more utility than any other dps spec.

In general, no player thinks their class is ever as good as it needs to be, but Retadins in particular are spoiled brats. They want max deeps, shit hot healing, tank-like defensives, AND all the utility ever. Or else they will cry endlessly about how much thier spec sucks.

[Ripitgood]

I would have responded with the quotes, but dear lord I don't have the effort required. Where to begin, I'll start from the bottom work my way up (rebel)

1st - I'm not sure if you're against healers doing DPS or for them. I'm not sure your position seems to change every other sentence so I'll say. Healers need to do well enough to level in a comparable time compared to others of the same spec/class. With a respectable portion of that attention paid to other classes. IE - 24 hrs for a DPS and 26hrs for a Healer is acceptable. Any other thought is naive, This is an MMORPG. EVERYONE IS FUCKING DIFFERENT. DIFFERENT IS OK.

2nd Don't insult people man, it only proves you can't handle what they've said or you've read. The guy likes the system, that doesn't mean the system is wrong, it doesn't mean your wrong, and it doesn't mean Blizzard is wrong. There very well could be some issues. But there is no definitive answer for systems that millions of players will experience, play, enjoy, hate, etc etc in the coming months.

3rd You took his statement out of context - This has happened in previous expansions, there are systems that have been implemented that haven't worked well leveling, or we couldn't even use while leveling - I could give examples, but I'm choosing to believe you're smart enough to see this for yourself. I get your issue with the current system of AP and the Artifacts.

3a - To expand on your opinion, I share the same sentiment in terms of why is the 14th point of my main spec as much as the previous 13 on my off-spec. It is odd, and I've not personally gotten to play with the system yet, but from what I've SEEN and HEARD, The system seems to work, I suppose if you REALLY wanna pick at it, it could be more balanced to allow for Main/Offspec. With that being said, I enjoy the idea of having to WORK for these weapons to shine. If everyone picked up Ashbringer and had Ashbringer, and it was all the same look, style, offered the same stats instantly. It would do NOTHING to set someone who's been playing since launch from the guy who just bought his copy to enjoy some raids with his friends. Having to make a decisions "Do I want my mainspec to be min/maxed, or do I wanna be able to fill a separate roll with a few % overall throughput loss". These types of decisions are good, they make you feel like you're making a choice.

4th Golden Dragons are really the things that will CHANGE leveling. %'s especially those in the 25% in terms of DMG effects are HUGE. With that being said you CAN level with out them, you're not going to be breaking any records compared to someone who is focusing on min/max. But you've GOT to stop thinking everything has to be perfectly aligned for people to play. You're harping on statistics most would consider min/max. When a very small group of us play that way, and even then to a certain degree. Golden Dragons will have the largest affect on your play style and leveling. The rest of the % increases and changes are just that small % changes that when applied to a max level toon with an ever increasing state pool will really shine.

5th Its called a Mainspec for a reason. If someone wants to throw ALL their points into to their Mainspec wep. How is that an issue for me who will throw a good amount then likely drop a good portion to keep my Fury weps up so I can dps on occasion? That person will do what 3-5% more overall DPS (If we're assuming dps) than me. And do less if they're pushed into an off-spec roll for whatever. At this point I feel like most you just want to complain to complain. The system isn't "ok" or "less than what we deserve" it's shaping up to be a pretty cool way to push these weapons into lore and to the game for fun. But then again, I'm hoping for WoW to go back to Vanilla/BC days so a little grindy system that I won't be able to take full part in due to RL is ok with me. But I digress.

6th Likely your most transgressed statement. First, I want to make this VERY specific. YOU'RE W.R.O.N.G. Got that?

Specs are and have ALWAYS been limited by the gear they acquire, for certain class of the melee persuasion - weapons being a HUGE limitation to this fact. Sort of ow I pulled 50K DPS on my first Heroic Deathwing Kill, then pulled a heroic Gurthak. And WRECKED the next one. WEAPONS are HUGE to almost all specs, I'd be willing to say ARE HUGE. I get that you're on the "well Ripit, you get to start with the Legendary BEFORE end game, those choice sup TILL max level didn't really matter". And you're fundamentally right, the weps or gear I got BEFORE max level where very trivial to me. But they still where there, they still did matter and could make the next area of questing far simpler.

In short, weapon drops DID matter in ALL previous expansions, along with the other 16 gear slots. The only difference is here, We get to start with our Artifact and increase it's overall ilvl and traits as we level as WELL as being max level.

In short, could you relax with the "Doom and Gloom". If you disagree with something, voice your opinion. Or the better method, Wait till the game goes live, and if and when the issues you where worried about pop up in Live. Then you get to sit back and watch the Choas.

[Deleted]

Fun is subjective.

Those are 3 words that shuold be spammed in almost 90% threads on MMOC.
On topic, i think it's in the very essence of being healer the fact that is harder and slower to quest (solo). Maybe the only exceptions was/are druid (see other forms) or monk (see fist) but they were always slower in comparison to dps spec, maybe more fun then a resto shaman, but still slow.

[Archibalde]

It's not that I don't believe that they are fine; it's that fine is not good enough. You could halve their dps again from where they are and they would still be "fine"; they would be able to quest from 100 to 110 and wouldn't die and would eventually level. That isn't a leveling experience that I can believe anyone enjoys, and certainly not one that I think is worthy of praise.

I seriously doubt anyone enjoys their way to 110 even if they have no issues. If you enjoy dpsing as a healer, I have a rock and a hammer you can play with if you like.

I see where this is going. You don't actually know what you are arguing about at this point, you are just doing it because you have to be right.

You have certain healing specs with more damaging abilities than actual DPS classes. I've said it in another post, I have more DPS abilities on my Paladin as Holy than I have as Retribution. I have more spells to use than my Arcane Mage. Once again, you can deny it all you want but you simply don't want to accept there isn't a problem. You almost certainly haven't played on the PTR or the Beta and are going off what you've heard instead of seeing if for yourself. Seriously, go on the PTR, copy one of your healers and go do some Tanaan stuff. You'll see. Stuff dies at a satisfying pace.

If "satisfying" isn't good enough for you, that's entirely on you. It doesn't make it an issue. It doesn't make it bad. It doesn't even make it something to be concerned about. You're just refusing to see the evidence in front of you because you've already made your mind and nobody can change it. DPSing as Holy is not going to be any worse than DPSing as an Arcane Mage, or an Outlaw Rogue, or a Retribution Paladin. Any class that only has a few core abilities. Once the novelty of the new flashy animations is gone, you're left with a very basic DPS class and it's not nearly as thrilling as you might think. DPSing as a healer to level up won't be any worse. Try it before you knock it.

[burlap]

You are missing the point. In WoD you never had to level in your healing spec. You could just kick over to your DPS spec instantly.

But Legion has created a new structure that revolves around the artifact weapon. This new system encourages you to level in the spec that you most want to play. So consider Holy. You are leveling in Holy because you want to do group content as a Holy Priest. But while leveling your toolkit is minute. You have no silence, no stun, no root, no slow. Oh yeah, you can still shackle undeads and that's about it.

Basically you are going to spend ten levels using your 3 damage spells on a bunch of mobs while keeping yourself alive with your massive healing toolkit. I don't know how anybody can deny that this is boring game play.

Blizzard has created a new gameplay model where the player is likely to level as his main spec. But they have not provided much in the way of utility or interesting abilities while doing so. Instead they have pruned away a lot of useful stuff. My resto shaman has lost a ton of useful and interesting totems and gained nothing in return.

False. Choose a healing artifact. Level as shadow. Problem solved. Or talent into Censure, boom, 5 second stun. Pull a bunch of mobs, holy nova, divine star or halo, boom, 10 mobs dead, Serenity heal to full. You're welcome.

Also, you seem to just be looking for reasons to express your unhappiness and subjective opinion regarding healing in Legion and just want to argue with everyone that tries to give some positive news or suggestion.

[Hexxidecimal]

False. Choose a healing artifact. Level as shadow. Problem solved. Or talent into Censure, boom, 5 second stun. Pull a bunch of mobs, holy nova, divine star or halo, boom, 10 mobs dead, Serenity heal to full. You're welcome.

Also, you seem to just be looking for reasons to express your unhappiness and subjective opinion regarding healing in Legion and just want to argue with everyone that tries to give some positive news or suggestion.

Honestly, considering what you just said, it doesn't even sound like his opinion is subjective, just wrong, and therefore not an opinion at all but him just being wrong.

[Wootmonkey]

Reading through the official Beta forums, there seems to be more complaints about Legion, and the choices Blizz has made, than any other expansion!

Forums will always lean in a negative direction. People who are upset yell more than people who are happy.

Also the official forums have been a cesspool of doom and gloom since vanilla.

[Ichifails]

well. at least you are not playing a tank, who is forced to rely more upon healers, who don't want to play because it is no longer fun...........

I really wonder how you people are so terrible at this game. Tanks in Legion can clear HC/Mythic0 dungeons without a healer because they take close to no damage. Your entire group can die on a boss and you can still solo it, with paladins being the only ones struggling.

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Honestly, considering what you just said, it doesn't even sound like his opinion is subjective, just wrong, and therefore not an opinion at all but him just being wrong.

It's complete bullshit. Artifact power you get from world quests scales with ilvl at level 110. It will take around 3 world quests to get another spec to the same artifact power you gather while leveling.

The pacing for artifact catch-up after Blizzard changed ap scaling is simply amazing. It takes around 20 minutes to get enough ap for a new spec to unlock one of the major perks in the tree and at that point you have to branch out.

[munkeyinorbit]

[QUOTE=Delekii;41109660]No, you didn't. None of those weapons had any bearing on end game. None of the gear had or has any bearing on end game. The artifact is literally the only item in its class; the only item in existence who's progression starts before max level.

Which means that you can never catch up to another person playing the same amount of time as you, if you put points into an "offspec" weapon.

Go read this as well. https://healiocentric.wordpress.com/...-wont-believe/

Doing more reading it's basically the consensus that you'll place 13 artifact points, then do your 2nd artifact since point 14 is more expensive than all 13 points of a second artifact. Also noted is that once you max your artifact outside of the passive .5% boosts, you could dump all your artifact power into a 2nd artifact to max it's traits. Your only loss would be 1.5% of passive damage to your primary artifact.

People are really getting more worried than is necessary.

- - - Updated - - -He's right; I don't believe it. Mostly because it isn't true.


Shall we go through some of the more pertinent relic traits that some classes can get at the start of their relics?

Im not even going to talk about the golden dragons, lets just talk about passives that we might get within the points, that we won't have as dps leveling a healer weapon.

Frost DK gets, within the 14 points you are talking about: 8% attack speed, 30% howling blast damage, 30% oblit crit damage, 6% pillar of frost damage, 8 yard range on frost strike, death strike heals for 300% more during IBF, 9% frost damage.

Let's look at dps specs healers are likely to use... I'm just picking the first 14 points that seem useful, not even considering potential impact of golden dragons you don't have.

Balance: 6% damage on wrath and starfire. 18% crit chance on starsurge. 5 yard increased radius on sunfire. 75% armor in moonkin form. Reduced interrupt cooldown. Chance to heal yourself 360% spellpower when taking damage.

Windwalker: 15% BOK damage, 9% RSK damage, Touch of karma heals you, increased chance of free BOKs by 6%, 10% increased sck, 30% max hp heal every 20sec.

Ret: 15% crusader strike damage, 24% divine hamer/boj damage, 18% crit chance on zeal, 7.5 seconds longer avenging wrath, increase damage of judgement by 45%.

Shadow: 20% mindflay damage, 15% mindblast, 30sec less on dispersion, 50% hp heal during dispersion, 10% death damage, 18% swp damage.

Ele shaman: 15% lightning bolt, 15% chain lightning, 15% flame shock damage, significantly shorter fire elemental cooldown, 10% lava burst damage, 45% surge healing

Do any of these sets of buffs really sound "not meaningful"? You either choose not to have these while leveling, or you choose not to have your healer versions when you hit 110, or a combination of both. In previous iterations, you could choose to take shadow weapons while leveling, and your position when hitting max level and changing to holy would be essentially the same.



It doesn't happen every expansion. This has literally never happened before. If you want an analogue that is remotely close to this, it would be like having the MoP perks only unlock for the spec you are playing on, and having to play that much over again to unlock them on your second and third specs. You level as ele shaman? You get no resto perks until you get to max level and run 15 dungeons. Enjoy. It's nonsense to say that it isn't impactful which ever way you choose to go. Your leveling or your early time at max level are definitionally gimped.

- - - Updated - - -



It's not unrealistic emphasis, and to state as much means you don't really understand math. I'm glad you think it's "fine"; perhaps mediocrity suits you (and the blog poster).

- - - Updated - - -



It's not that I don't believe that they are fine; it's that fine is not good enough. You could halve their dps again from where they are and they would still be "fine"; they would be able to quest from 100 to 110 and wouldn't die and would eventually level. That isn't a leveling experience that I can believe anyone enjoys, and certainly not one that I think is worthy of praise.

I seriously doubt anyone enjoys their way to 110 even if they have no issues. If you enjoy dpsing as a healer, I have a rock and a hammer you can play with if you like.

I think you basically need to calm down and breath. You are getting worked up about nothing. Do you have any mythic gear. Maybe heroic raid gear? Guess what, as a healer you are going to breeze through the leveling content. Leveling will be easy and fast. Who cares about the artifact honestly. If you want to heal then and "max out" your artifact then take a chill pill and level as a healer. All of those things that you listed are irrelevant. If you have gear then you are just going to cut those mobs down. Do you know why what you are saying is just the biggest shit posting I've seen this week? You cant play two specs at once. Think about that. If you can only play one spec at a time don't you think you should play the one that you enjoy? What is there to get worked up about? Do you need to level in 4 hours? I'm pretty sure the real content doesn't start for a few weeks.

Calm down, play what you enjoy and realize that even if you decide to split your points, your going to be in the same place as every body else when it comes to raid time.

[Delekii]

I see where this is going. You don't actually know what you are arguing about at this point, you are just doing it because you have to be right.

You have certain healing specs with more damaging abilities than actual DPS classes. I've said it in another post, I have more DPS abilities on my Paladin as Holy than I have as Retribution. I have more spells to use than my Arcane Mage. Once again, you can deny it all you want but you simply don't want to accept there isn't a problem. You almost certainly haven't played on the PTR or the Beta and are going off what you've heard instead of seeing if for yourself. Seriously, go on the PTR, copy one of your healers and go do some Tanaan stuff. You'll see. Stuff dies at a satisfying pace.

If "satisfying" isn't good enough for you, that's entirely on you. It doesn't make it an issue. It doesn't make it bad. It doesn't even make it something to be concerned about. You're just refusing to see the evidence in front of you because you've already made your mind and nobody can change it. DPSing as Holy is not going to be any worse than DPSing as an Arcane Mage, or an Outlaw Rogue, or a Retribution Paladin. Any class that only has a few core abilities. Once the novelty of the new flashy animations is gone, you're left with a very basic DPS class and it's not nearly as thrilling as you might think. DPSing as a healer to level up won't be any worse. Try it before you knock it.

I've done both. Healers are terrible. They aren't as bad as they used to be, but that is irrelevant, because people didn't used to be forced to level as healer to be at equivalent progression at max level. Using retribution paladin to support your case is ridiculous, since retribution paladins are up in arms about how terrible their "rotation" is. In all other cases, healer rotations are objectively more simple than their dps counterparts, and do less damage. Oh, and woopee, if you suck you still won't die. Relevant for some.

I think you basically need to calm down and breath. You are getting worked up about nothing. Do you have any mythic gear. Maybe heroic raid gear? Guess what, as a healer you are going to breeze through the leveling content. Leveling will be easy and fast. Who cares about the artifact honestly. If you want to heal then and "max out" your artifact then take a chill pill and level as a healer. All of those things that you listed are irrelevant. If you have gear then you are just going to cut those mobs down. Do you know why what you are saying is just the biggest shit posting I've seen this week? You cant play two specs at once. Think about that. If you can only play one spec at a time don't you think you should play the one that you enjoy? What is there to get worked up about? Do you need to level in 4 hours? I'm pretty sure the real content doesn't start for a few weeks.

Calm down, play what you enjoy and realize that even if you decide to split your points, your going to be in the same place as every body else when it comes to raid time.

What I enjoy is leveling in the most efficient manner possible. In this case, the most efficient manner possible is to forgo being a healer for the expansion. Period.

What you are saying is subjective at best, and mathematically wrong at worst. I don't need to level in 4 hours; I _want_ to level as quickly as possible. If you don't, that's fine; do what you like. Fuck off telling me that leveling as a healer is "fine", as if it is some objective measure of anything important.

False. Choose a healing artifact. Level as shadow. Problem solved. Or talent into Censure, boom, 5 second stun. Pull a bunch of mobs, holy nova, divine star or halo, boom, 10 mobs dead, Serenity heal to full. You're welcome.

False. People who put artifact power into shadow weapons leveled faster than you. People who leveled as holy are starting ahead of you in artifact progression. Healers are forced to choose between leveling slower or starting behind in progression compared with dps and, to a lesser degree, tanks. Objective fact. This has never been the case before. Objective fact.

Also, you seem to just be looking for reasons to express your unhappiness and subjective opinion regarding healing in Legion and just want to argue with everyone that tries to give some positive news or suggestion.

Nobody is asking you to respond. You are choosing to.

These posts are now becoming cyclical, so I won't bother to respond again. If you're happy to be forced to level slower or progress slower than other classes, along with potentially enduring the monotony of legion healer leveling, more power to you. Is there any downside to aiming to fix it? No? Why are you arguing with us? Do you actually enjoy healer dps? Do you actually enjoy being forced to choose between progression and leveling efficiency? What is the upside of winning the argument from your point of view? Is it just so we can all sing kumbayah around the camp fire, or do you actually have something to gain? If not, fuck off and concentrate on threads where your point of view has some sort of benefit. There is no downside to making healer leveling equivalently fast and efficient to other specs.

[judgementofantonidas]

I really wonder how you people are so terrible at this game. Tanks in Legion can clear HC/Mythic0 dungeons without a healer because they take close to no damage. Your entire group can die on a boss and you can still solo it, with paladins being the only ones struggling.

huh. guess I knew that considering I have leveled and played no less than three paladins in the alpha/beta experience. they are exactly what I am referring to. could give a shit about op tank classes that did not get screwed. paladins, the priest warriors cannot heal themselves. fucking stupid.

[Hexxidecimal]

I've done both. Healers are terrible. They aren't as bad as they used to be, but that is irrelevant, because people didn't used to be forced to level as healer to be at equivalent progression at max level. Using retribution paladin to support your case is ridiculous, since retribution paladins are up in arms about how terrible their "rotation" is. In all other cases, healer rotations are objectively more simple than their dps counterparts, and do less damage. Oh, and woopee, if you suck you still won't die. Relevant for some.



What I enjoy is leveling in the most efficient manner possible. In this case, the most efficient manner possible is to forgo being a healer for the expansion. Period.

What you are saying is subjective at best, and mathematically wrong at worst. I don't need to level in 4 hours; I _want_ to level as quickly as possible. If you don't, that's fine; do what you like. Fuck off telling me that leveling as a healer is "fine", as if it is some objective measure of anything important.

False. People who put artifact power into shadow weapons leveled faster than you. People who leveled as holy are starting ahead of you in artifact progression. Healers are forced to choose between leveling slower or starting behind in progression compared with dps and, to a lesser degree, tanks. Objective fact. This has never been the case before. Objective fact.

Nobody is asking you to respond. You are choosing to.

So basically we have come to the crux of the issue. You want to level as fast as possible. But you can't do that as a healer because you don't do as much damage as a DPS. So you want, as a healer to do as much damage as a DPS. Glad we cleared that up. For a moment I thought you actually had a point with realistic expectations and a middle ground. Turns out, you just want something ridiculous.

You may level as shadow and put all your artifact power into holy. Will you level more slowly than someone who puts all their artifact power into shadow? Sure. However your point in regards to people who leveled as holy starting ahead of you is stupid. Sure they didn't take the time to go get the shadow artifact so they will be slightly ahead. You will easily overtake them by just leveling as a DPS spec then switching to Healer mode where you have put all your artifact points when it becomes needed. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE that healers level more slowly than DPS, ALWAYS.

So now it's clear, what you want is unrealistic. You haven't suggested anything of merit, only that Healers should dps as hard as DPS classes and have all the same healing utility that they have now. Your arguments and your requests are asinine.

If you actually wish to level as fast as possible don't stop with crazy requests though. Go the extra mile and pull off some Athene BS so you can level in like 3 hours or something. Only then can you actually claim to really want to level as fast as possible.