BREXIT - leave or remain?

[apepi]

Cosmere shorts from Brandon Sanderson. Just finished all the big books. Waiting for Stormlight 3.

You don't wait alone my friend.

[Shalcker]

Wait, what... you're actually saying we should, what... work less? Are you ACTUALLY suggesting that us being lazy fucks would improve the situation for Europe? Is this some twisted lowest common denominator logic going on here?

No, you need to pay more for the work you actually do, as you should. So that you can actually buy more German and EU products and lower your trade proficit.

You're literally saying Germany is killing the EU by doing it right. Now I've really heard everything. I'll go to my employer tomorrow and tell him I'd like to just work 5 hours a day for the same wage, please. Because that'll help the Greeks. I'm sure he'll agree. I'm absolutely certain he will not have any arguments against that.

How much was inflation rate was through your entire work period, and how much was your wage adjusted to it, can you give a number?

[Triks]

Despite what some people say, I think Eastern Europe is making leaps and bounds. Considering the shithole of the communist era that they came out of, they did well. Still a long way to go, but it's really good to see the progress. I mean, heck... even in Macedonia corruption is still running rampant. But we'll get there, just give them enough time.

I can also see the perspective that the EU has helped us more than we have it which is true. Most of our corruption problems and shitty economies will improve in time because of the Western influence that the EU has on us. We are not perfect but we are in a way better situation than we were in the 90's and early 2000's.

[Floopa]

I fully expected tax rises and a recession if the leave vote won. I still voted leave. In the long run its going to be worth it. The EU is not sustainable in its current state.

[alexw]

Germans are some of the best-paid workers in the EU. Please stop.

This is the wrong way to think about it. It is not wages which matter but wages vs productivity because that is what decides what the cost of something per unit of output is decided, and on this the evidence is clear. Wages have been stagnant in Germany for decades which productivity has risen.

[Slant]

No, you need to pay more for the work you actually do, as you should. So that you can actually buy more German and EU products and lower your trade proficit.

How much was inflation rate was through your entire work period, and how much was your wage adjusted to it, can you give a number?

Oh, I agree. We need to get paid more. Everyone needs to get paid more.

But honestly, do you actually think the extra money is going to end up in Greece? I actually prefer to buy products that I know. And most of them are German, because I'm sitting at the source right here and we have cool stuff. So I'm not even sure what your hope here is. All increased wages in Germany is going to do is heat up our money cycle and turn into an even bigger tax profit for Germany.

Btw, we already had budget surplus the last two years. That is a bad thing, usually. We actually don't know what to do with the money. That's why we're able to feed Greece, feed refugees and announce a military investment that doubles the military budget every year. But please, share more of your insights on how we should improve our situation.

[Cairhiin]

Wait, what... you're actually saying we should, what... work less? Are you ACTUALLY suggesting that us being lazy fucks would improve the situation for Europe? Is this some twisted lowest common denominator logic going on here?

You're literally saying Germany is killing the EU by doing it right. Now I've really heard everything. I'll go to my employer tomorrow and tell him I'd like to just work 5 hours a day for the same wage, please. Because that'll help the Greeks. I'm sure he'll agree. I'm absolutely certain he will not have any arguments against that.

Most people on these forums have no clue about economics, and especially not the economic theory behind trade agreements. His argument makes no sense.

By the way in a north-north trade agreement (ie between developed countries like the EU) - the relatively poorer countries gain more than the richer based on income convergence. This is because countries with more extreme relative advantage (Germany) are more vulnerable to the effects of preferential trade agreements.

[Triks]

Both major parties have been pandering to the over 50's in a major way, though the Tories are much much worse in this respect. Right now in the UK if you are retired and don't work you have a higher income and more spending power than if you are of working age. That is frankly insane.

Some have moved abroad but its difficult for a number of reasons - the Europe wide depression which means lots of competition for jobs in other european nations, language barriers, that you need to have some savings already to be able to do this, and the fact it requires a certain type of mindset which many people don't have.

Why can't young people and the working class unite and vote in a party?

[alexw]

It's because EU is run by Germany and Germany has to keep their labour costs down for their export economy to remain competitive. They keep their wages suppressed and do not get enough growth in domestic demand to offset balance of trade gains.

...and they fight tooth and nail against everything that might threaten their model.

Bingo! Sadly too few realize this.

[Shalcker]

Most people on these forums have no clue about economics, and especially not the economic theory behind trade agreements. His argument makes no sense.

By the way in a north-north trade agreement (ie between developed countries like the EU) - the relatively poorer countries gain more than the richer based on income convergence. This is because countries with more extreme relative advantage (Germany) are more vulnerable to the effects of preferential trade agreements.

Which effects exactly do you have in mind here?

[Slant]

I can also see the perspective that the EU has helped us more than we have it which is true. Most of our corruption problems and shitty economies will improve in time because of the Western influence that the EU has on us. We are not perfect but we are in a way better situation than we were in the 90's and early 2000's.

It will work out. If only people stopped freaking out about it. I mean Germany is literally flooded with Polish construction workers, but they work by German (EU) standards and they're doing a good job. Not their fault that nobody here wants to do the work. It's amusing to see the British complain about "a Polish plumber" when I see truckloads of them at our local supermarket each friday, buying booze by the dozen for their trip back home to Poland for the weekend.

You don't see us bitching about it. Most Germans don't think working in construction is something they'd like to do.

[alexw]

I've addressed the fiscal transfer problem, should I wait until you catch up with the thread?

No, you have basically stamped your foot and said its not going to happen. That is not addressing the problem but ignoring it. If it isn't then tell me what year within the next decade that you expect the necessary fiscal transfers to begin?

[Triks]

It will work out. If only people stopped freaking out about it. I mean Germany is literally flooded with Polish construction workers, but they work by German (EU) standards and they're doing a good job. Not their fault that nobody here wants to do the work. It's amusing to see the British complain about "a Polish plumber" when I see truckloads of them at our local supermarket each friday, buying booze by the dozen for their trip back home to Poland for the weekend.

You don't see us bitching about it. Most Germans don't think working in construction is something they'd like to do.

Yeah I also believe things will work themselves out in the end. The more we work together, the more we work by the same standards. Our financial industry went from a Soviet mess to an IFRS-based one that attracts the Big 4 auditors and some of the bigger financial institutions.

[Slant]

No, you have basically stamped your foot and said its not going to happen. That is not addressing the problem but ignoring it. If it isn't then tell me what year within the next decade that you expect the necessary fiscal transfers to begin?

I didn't stamp my foot and said it's not going to happen. Germany knows how important fiscal transfers are. We do it within Germany all the time. I'm fairly certain the EU could do it on a European scale and Germany would support it. If the conditions are right. And a fiscal union should be a non-negotiable condition of this. You can't expect to actually tie Germany's fate with a rope to a country like Greece without some checks and balances involved. This is by the way essentially what Germany did with Greece. This kind of deal (we pay, but we'll make sure you don't waste the money like you did before) is basically a bilateral fiscal union as far as this one specific deal is concerned.

Those two go hand in hand. They have to. They cannot be seperated.

[Floopa]

Why can't young people and the working class unite and vote in a party?

because young people are either
a) unemployed
b) at university
c) hailing communism

meanwhile working class people are either:
a) towing the bread line
b) dealing with children
c) wondering why they're being ignored by parliament

it's 2 separate worlds. very rarely do young people ever enter the same status quo as the working class. the working class, by definition, are largely without choice.

[Slant]

Yeah I also believe things will work themselves out in the end. The more we work together, the more we work by the same standards. Our financial industry went from a Soviet mess to an IFRS-based one that attracts the Big 4 auditors and some of the bigger financial institutions.

Ah, the IFRS. :P

I get a headache whenever I see that abbreviation.

[Deleted]

Why can't young people and the working class unite and vote in a party?

That's basically what happened with Labour and Jeremy Corbyn.

The problem is that the establishment is very much against it. Have a look at what is happening to Corbyn in the news right now.

[Triks]

because young people are either
a) unemployed
b) at university
c) hailing communism

meanwhile working class people are either:
a) towing the bread line
b) dealing with children
c) wondering why they're being ignored by parliament

it's 2 separate worlds. very rarely do young people ever enter the same status quo as the working class. the working class, by definition, are largely without choice.

DAMN! Your society is really divided.

- - - Updated - - -

Ah, the IFRS. :P

I get a headache whenever I see that abbreviation.

Hahahha

It's a good thing you guys have your own set of accounts. IFRS is a mess (not that US-GAAP is better).

[alexw]

In Romania, what you'd call gypsy country, even our incompetent gov. has a program which would roughly translate to eng : First house program. It basically means that young people, up to 35 but I might be wrong, if they pay a monthly fee into the program for 2 years are entitled to a loan up to 100.000 Eur (might be wrong but somewhere along those lines) . The gov. basically guarantees for the banks that this individual is capable of paying back a loan. forgot to mention that this creates supply, because construction workers can roughly gauge the amount of people looking for house in short-term.

I live in Cluj-Napoca, which is a huge student hub here, flats are being built like crazy. There is a shortage of housing, mostly because the city has 300.000 inhabitants during the summer, and during university year it jumps up to 450k. But still, if we can do it, the UK should be able too.

I've followed the news on Brexit, and just read the article on BBC news reality check which said that everything the Leave campaigners have said is nothing close to the truth. From the immigration, to NHS, to trade and everything between. I was gutted when I heard that the UK voted to leave, personally im a huge anglophile, even had plans to move to Newcastle to study Economics.

Anyway, too bad guys.

Edit.

Oh its not lack of ability. Its lack of will, or rather the will to do all they can to prevent the necessary house building among those who benefit from ever inflating asset prices. When I realized how utterly self-centered and selfish the UK's over 50's are I was left utterly speechless.

[Triks]

That's basically what happened with Labour and Jeremy Corbyn.

The problem is that the establishment is very much against it. Have a look at what is happening to Corbyn in the news right now.

From what I saw your Labour party panders more to students, rather than the working class. In fact, I dare to say it has lost it.