Thoughts on Tanking and Blood going into Legion (LONG)

[Positions]

Think Haste Crit build will be the new top? I do love my mastery... but don't believe Legion DS will even compare to Live DS. (Massive bubbles wise)

Pretty sure it won't. I've been playing crit>mastery on beta and a never really have a problem with rp. I also run the dnd talent for the extra rp and always keep at least one charge of bone shield up for the 10% haste.

[Philondra]

Mark of blood and bonestorm are horrible choices anyway
If you really lack RP just get more haste

I think Bonestorm is situationally amazing, depending on what your role in the fight is (or if your focus is on pulls of multiple packs, such as in a 5 man).

Think Haste Crit build will be the new top? I do love my mastery... but don't believe Legion DS will even compare to Live DS. (Massive bubbles wise)

I have yet to test this out because I have only a limited amount of gear on live, but I can very easily see haste being our best stat. Not only does it create more runes-->more runic power-->more death strikes, but most of those runes created would be going into Heart Strikes for stronger DPS and runic power per rune.

Think of it this way: the number of Marrowrends we have to use per minute to maintain Bone Shield will remain constant over the life of the expansion. Therefore, as our gear(haste) increases, so too does the percent of runes we're able to spend on Heart Strike.

Crit provides parry, which both decreases damage taken and will save us some Bone Shield charges in the long run--although given the poor conversion of crit rating into parry chance, even on the longest fight I doubt it will save us more than one of two Marrowrends.
Mastery is a flat damage increase, but I've never been terribly convinced by Blood Shield, particularly in light of the Death Strike nerf.

It's worth noting that crit's value goes up if you choose to go down the right side of the tree for Skeletal Shattering, but I think that's probably the worst of our three gold traits.

I predict that haste will be our best stat, but I'm not sure which of crit or mastery will be our second.

[Deleted]

I personally enojy the new dk playstyle with is a lot of fun now, however i can understand your concerns with the way certain things work. I defienietly don't want them to revamp dk's now, but i'd like to see certain adjustements with resources

[Milocow]

I think haste > mastery > critical
Haste to get the basic minimum marrowrends per minute assuming you lose 1bonecharge per second (worst case scenario)
After that I like to funnel all my stats into mastery because unending thirst is that good. More mastery > more leech uptime
Crit does extend lifespan of boneshield charges and blood shield uptime but it is unreliable and you can't parry special attacks so IMO critical is meh. Even with skeletal shattering trait critical is still me because you only get 1% DR on average for every 25% critical chance from the trait so IMO the trait doesn't boost crit value much
More haste > more attacks you can squeeze into blood shield window > more leech

[Deleted]

I haven't done the math to confirm this, but I think numerically, crit will be our strongest stat, followed by haste, versatility and finally mastery as our worst stat, but because of it's random nature crit will probably be lower on our priority list.
Here's why:

Crit gives you parry, which prevents boneshield charges being eaten, which means more HS, resulting in more DS. Also occasionally prevents your Blood Shield being consumed from auto attacks (something that's almost impossible with mastery alone) resulting in a higher uptime of Unending Thirst, giving you a ton of leech. Also probably is your highest DPS stat, meaning you'll get more out of Leech effects. On top of that, it increases Blood Worm proc rate (should you choose that talent), and it enables Skeletal Shattering.
On the other hand, it's unpredictable and uncontrollable, which greatly diminishes its actual value. Useless against magic damage (besides more leech).

Haste gives you more Runes, which directly results in more DS. Since your Bone Shield charges still get consumed at the same rate, it also means more HS, resulting in even more DS. Makes keeping up Bone Shield easier, and gives you more control over your rotation with a lower GCD.
But it's the only stat that doesn't affect the healing you gain from BP/Blood Drinker/Consumption.

Versatility could be a lot better than you might think. It's the most consistent stat, giving you a flat DR and a flat healing boost to everything (including DS). BP, Blood Drinker and Blood Shield do not double dip from this.
Unlike Crit and Haste does not affect your MR, potentially hurting you immensely if you can't keep up Bone Shield.

Mastery adds a physical absorb to your DS, making it useless against magic damage. Since a lot of our survival has been moved away from DS, mastery is a lot weaker than on live. Mastery has the potential to prevent Bone Shield and Blood Shield from being consumed, on a more consistent level than crit. However, this requires immense amounts of mastery so Blood Shield is strong enough to absorb an entire auto attack. For bosses that don't melee very hard, this might be a breakpoint worth pursuing. Beyond that point however, or if you cannot reach that point, mastery is probably your weakest stat overall, with the same weakness as Versatility.
It is the stat where you have the most control over your mitigation, but I'm not sure whether that's enough to save it.

[Milocow]

I haven't done the math to confirm this, but I think numerically, crit will be our strongest stat, followed by haste, versatility and finally mastery as our worst stat, but because of it's random nature crit will probably be lower on our priority list.
Here's why:

Crit gives you parry, which prevents boneshield charges being eaten, which means more HS, resulting in more DS. Also occasionally prevents your Blood Shield being consumed from auto attacks (something that's almost impossible with mastery alone) resulting in a higher uptime of Unending Thirst, giving you a ton of leech. Also probably is your highest DPS stat, meaning you'll get more out of Leech effects. On top of that, it increases Blood Worm proc rate (should you choose that talent), and it enables Skeletal Shattering.
On the other hand, it's unpredictable and uncontrollable, which greatly diminishes its actual value. Useless against magic damage (besides more leech).

Haste gives you more Runes, which directly results in more DS. Since your Bone Shield charges still get consumed at the same rate, it also means more HS, resulting in even more DS. Makes keeping up Bone Shield easier, and gives you more control over your rotation with a lower GCD.
But it's the only stat that doesn't affect the healing you gain from BP/Blood Drinker/Consumption.

Versatility could be a lot better than you might think. It's the most consistent stat, giving you a flat DR and a flat healing boost to everything (including DS). BP, Blood Drinker and Blood Shield do not double dip from this.
Unlike Crit and Haste does not affect your MR, potentially hurting you immensely if you can't keep up Bone Shield.

Mastery adds a physical absorb to your DS, making it useless against magic damage. Since a lot of our survival has been moved away from DS, mastery is a lot weaker than on live. Mastery has the potential to prevent Bone Shield and Blood Shield from being consumed, on a more consistent level than crit. However, this requires immense amounts of mastery so Blood Shield is strong enough to absorb an entire auto attack. For bosses that don't melee very hard, this might be a breakpoint worth pursuing. Beyond that point however, or if you cannot reach that point, mastery is probably your weakest stat overall, with the same weakness as Versatility.
It is the stat where you have the most control over your mitigation, but I'm not sure whether that's enough to save it.

Crit is god damn expensive to convert it to parry though.
Stat conversion at 110
1% of said stat and rating required
Haste : 325
Crit : 350
Versatility : 399
Mastery : 349 (2% blood shield 1% attack power)
Parry : 514 (not even counting DR)
As you can see crit > parry is fucking expensive and we probably wont stack it

[Deleted]

It'll be haste to a certain breakpoint. Some mythic fights demand a lot of haste to keep up BS and if you don't have BS up on those fights, then you're dead in 2 shots. A fight like Botanist while tanking arcanist would be such a fight.

Crit is a good stat for several reasons. Crit gives more dmg, which synergizes with the major trait Umbilicus Eternus, and parry(Might be little, but still something), but above all it synergizes with the Major Trait to the right in the artifact tree, Skeletal Shattering. Blood Shields are so tiny you hardly notice they're there.

My prediction is
Haste(To a certain point)>Crit>Mastery/Versa

[ryvas]

I've been trying to understand how the Blood DK works but for the life of me, it just seems to go over my head . I understand Prot Warrior, Prot Pally and Vengeance DH and can tank pretty well with them but somehow, I can't seem to grasp the mechanics of the Blood DK. It just feels like I'm doing it all wrong.. Do I build RP with HS, use MR/DS only when necessary and use the other abilities on cooldown or when needed? I can't help feeling I'm missing something...

I've read through this entire thread, looked at the videos on Youtube, and I still don't understand how the Blood DK works, specifically the rotations, what I should be doing, what I should be looking out for, etc.

I would really appreciate it if someone could explain the Legion Blood DK to me.

Thanks!
A totally confused noob.

[Deleted]

I've been trying to understand how the Blood DK works but for the life of me, it just seems to go over my head . I understand Prot Warrior, Prot Pally and Vengeance DH and can tank pretty well with them but somehow, I can't seem to grasp the mechanics of the Blood DK. It just feels like I'm doing it all wrong.. Do I build RP with HS, use MR/DS only when necessary and use the other abilities on cooldown or when needed? I can't help feeling I'm missing something...

I've read through this entire thread, looked at the videos on Youtube, and I still don't understand how the Blood DK works, specifically the rotations, what I should be doing, what I should be looking out for, etc.

I would really appreciate it if someone could explain the Legion Blood DK to me.

Thanks!
A totally confused noob.

I do a lot of Mythic+ and I run with this build, also during raid testing. Blood Mirror is prolly better for raid testing.

http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...ght/blood/MP10

Heart Strike(HS) = RP Generator

Marrowrend(MR) = Whenever below 6 stacks of Boneshield

Death Strik(DS) = If you think the boss is easy and it'll be no problem, just DPS MAN! If it's hard yeah save it.

Consumption(Artifact) = DPS CD or keep on big pulls as an emergency button

Vampiric blood(VP) = You can have a lot of uptime on it with Red Thirst, now imagine how it would be with this badboy Service of Gorefiend and this Umbilicus Eternus. If you know the boss has something hard hitting, save it for that, if not use it whenever to ease the pain for the healer.

Dancing Rune Weapon(DRW) = I use it on pull. Just to get the 10 stacks quickly. If it's raid test, and other tank starts, obviously save it because you'll have time to get shield. Apart from that, dps.

Blood Boil(BB) = Whenever, it's free!

Anti-Magic Shell(AMS) = Nature/Magic dmg, makes it a lot easier for the healer if you use it on big AoE dmg to the group, so he/she can focus on the group.

Also worth noting. This is the artifact traits i've gone with so far.
Current Blood Artifact

Works very well, find it easy to survive.

[Unholyground]

I love the state blood is in, I have died once in a dungeon I think because I got stunned 6 times in a row with 7 guys wailing on me. Also BONESTORM!!!!!

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Mark of blood and bonestorm are horrible choices anyway
If you really lack RP just get more haste

Bonestorm is a great choice, I just think it should not require RP for its effect and it would be that much more amazing, give it like a base 10 sec duration. Either that or give Blood a baseline ability that generates RP on CD.

[ryvas]

Thanks a bunch, Kanj! Your explanation really helped.

I'm still unclear with some of the terminology though: What is VP? Can't seem to find that ability... Also Blood Thirst?

Thanks!

[Deleted]

Thanks a bunch, Kanj! Your explanation really helped.

I'm still unclear with some of the terminology though: What is VP? Can't seem to find that ability... Also Blood Thirst?

Thanks!

Blood Thirst = Red Thirst - I dun goofd.
VP = Vampiric Blood

[ryvas]

Gotcha, Kanj. Thanks once again.

I'm trying to gauge my tanking effectiveness with the DK - on the normal tanking dummy in the DK order hall, I get up to 14-16 Uber Strikes before crumpling. On the level 112 Dungeoneer's dummy, I can't even survive 2-3 uber strikes. This is all with the premade level 110 PvP DK. How many stacks should I be aiming for?

[Deleted]

Gotcha, Kanj. Thanks once again.

I'm trying to gauge my tanking effectiveness with the DK - on the normal tanking dummy in the DK order hall, I get up to 14-16 Uber Strikes before crumpling. On the level 112 Dungeoneer's dummy, I can't even survive 2-3 uber strikes. This is all with the premade level 110 PvP DK. How many stacks should I be aiming for?

Eeh I dont know. I dont bother with dummy. Bosses aren't dummies.

But no problem.

[ryvas]

Alright, thanks for all your help! Cheers!

[Fenrkyr]

I realize some of the criticisms in this thread are from older builds, but honestly aside from the much weaker blood shields, Blood really feels fantastic. It really does recapture some of the feel of the old Blood DPS, and completely did away with the caster-centric abomination of WoD Blood. Legion Blood feels strong, visceral, vampiric, and like an actually hard hitting melee spec again. I do agree that some of the talents are still pretty terrible, Soulgorge and Tombstone in particular, but overall I am very pleased with the spec and feel it is a massive upgrade from WoD Blood.

[Deleted]

Alright, thanks for all your help! Cheers!

No problem man.

[Deleted]

I haven't done the math to confirm this, but I think numerically, crit will be our strongest stat, followed by haste, versatility and finally mastery as our worst stat, but because of it's random nature crit will probably be lower on our priority list.
Here's why:

Crit gives you parry, which prevents boneshield charges being eaten, which means more HS, resulting in more DS. Also occasionally prevents your Blood Shield being consumed from auto attacks (something that's almost impossible with mastery alone) resulting in a higher uptime of Unending Thirst, giving you a ton of leech. Also probably is your highest DPS stat, meaning you'll get more out of Leech effects. On top of that, it increases Blood Worm proc rate (should you choose that talent), and it enables Skeletal Shattering.
On the other hand, it's unpredictable and uncontrollable, which greatly diminishes its actual value. Useless against magic damage (besides more leech).

Haste gives you more Runes, which directly results in more DS. Since your Bone Shield charges still get consumed at the same rate, it also means more HS, resulting in even more DS. Makes keeping up Bone Shield easier, and gives you more control over your rotation with a lower GCD.
But it's the only stat that doesn't affect the healing you gain from BP/Blood Drinker/Consumption.

Versatility could be a lot better than you might think. It's the most consistent stat, giving you a flat DR and a flat healing boost to everything (including DS). BP, Blood Drinker and Blood Shield do not double dip from this.
Unlike Crit and Haste does not affect your MR, potentially hurting you immensely if you can't keep up Bone Shield.

Mastery adds a physical absorb to your DS, making it useless against magic damage. Since a lot of our survival has been moved away from DS, mastery is a lot weaker than on live. Mastery has the potential to prevent Bone Shield and Blood Shield from being consumed, on a more consistent level than crit. However, this requires immense amounts of mastery so Blood Shield is strong enough to absorb an entire auto attack. For bosses that don't melee very hard, this might be a breakpoint worth pursuing. Beyond that point however, or if you cannot reach that point, mastery is probably your weakest stat overall, with the same weakness as Versatility.
It is the stat where you have the most control over your mitigation, but I'm not sure whether that's enough to save it.

Skeletal Shattering is a joke, since even with massive and unachiavable amount of crit it would give such a low amount of DR that everyone can forget about it.
Mastery not only boost our blood shield (as laughable as it may be), but it also increases attack power by a percentage, meaning more damage > more leech, and as we get more haste we generate more rp, meaning more DS and more shields.

Crit is not bad as third choice, but the conversion to parry is too low and Skeletal Shattering is simply useless. Maybe later in the expansion it will rise in value for dps and leech reasons, but I highly doubt it will be a priority in the first tier.

[cujoe]

I do a lot of Mythic+ and I run with this build, also during raid testing. Blood Mirror is prolly better for raid testing.

http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...ght/blood/MP10

Heart Strike(HS) = RP Generator

Marrowrend(MR) = Whenever below 6 stacks of Boneshield

Death Strik(DS) = If you think the boss is easy and it'll be no problem, just DPS MAN! If it's hard yeah save it.

Consumption(Artifact) = DPS CD or keep on big pulls as an emergency button

Vampiric blood(VP) = You can have a lot of uptime on it with Red Thirst, now imagine how it would be with this badboy Service of Gorefiend and this Umbilicus Eternus. If you know the boss has something hard hitting, save it for that, if not use it whenever to ease the pain for the healer.

Dancing Rune Weapon(DRW) = I use it on pull. Just to get the 10 stacks quickly. If it's raid test, and other tank starts, obviously save it because you'll have time to get shield. Apart from that, dps.

Blood Boil(BB) = Whenever, it's free!

Anti-Magic Shell(AMS) = Nature/Magic dmg, makes it a lot easier for the healer if you use it on big AoE dmg to the group, so he/she can focus on the group.

Also worth noting. This is the artifact traits i've gone with so far.
Current Blood Artifact

Works very well, find it easy to survive.

Do you think Umbilicus Eternus is a good choice over Unending Thirst for raiding as well? I can imagine that if you do mythic+ dungeons Blood Plague does a lot of damage in AoE situations, but for single target bosses it is probably lackluster. What are your experiences?

[Deleted]

Do you think Umbilicus Eternus is a good choice over Unending Thirst for raiding as well? I can imagine that if you do mythic+ dungeons Blood Plague does a lot of damage in AoE situations, but for single target bosses it is probably lackluster. What are your experiences?

The leech from Unending Thirst would prolly be better for bosses. Because even on a boss that consists of three (Botanist) you'll only have one on you. Which lets you have Blood Shield up a little bit before it disappears, due to the slow hits from the boss. But on fights with a lot of things hitting you, Blood Shield will be gone quickly, and you won't get to use the leech (Scorpion guy). I could imagine Umbilicus Eternus being better. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. But one thing is sure Umbilicus will be better for the first three weeks, before the raids starts

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Skeletal Shattering is a joke, since even with massive and unachiavable amount of crit it would give such a low amount of DR that everyone can forget about it.
Mastery not only boost our blood shield (as laughable as it may be), but it also increases attack power by a percentage, meaning more damage > more leech, and as we get more haste we generate more rp, meaning more DS and more shields.

Crit is not bad as third choice, but the conversion to parry is too low and Skeletal Shattering is simply useless. Maybe later in the expansion it will rise in value for dps and leech reasons, but I highly doubt it will be a priority in the first tier.

I think the Mastery > Crit thing is an unpopular idea among the majority of Blood DK's on Beta. Crit also increase dmg.