BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Triks]

The young have a right to whinge because they are 100% right.

Your typical 65 year old retiree will over their lifetime each consume ~£230K more in benefits and state provided services than they will have paid in in taxes. By comparison the typical 18 year old will over their lifetime pay in ~£190K (think it was this, was a fair while ago that I perused the figures) more in taxes than they will consume in benefits and state provided services.

If anything the young should be rioting on the streets with how they have been treated.

Aren't they already rioting at Trafalgar Square?

- - - Updated - - -

But that´s not what the EU is for. These are selfmade problems.

Is there actually anything you can blame on the EU?

That's the problem - "remain" couldn't explain that those are internal and not EU problems.

[Shadowmelded]

Yep. The EU leadership does have many responsibilities for the mistakes of the past 8 years and Brexit should be a wake-up call. But that means the EU failed as a concept? Absolutely not, we just need a new paradigm and kick out the neo-cons that completely failed the european people.

Agreed. We need a EU government that is lead by moderates and has young experts advising them on decisions. Cookie-cutter approaches rarely work in the real world.

Sadly it might be difficult. The European Parliament has a (centre) left wing majority. It's the council that has a lot of right wingers and they're elected by the member states. No real way for us to make member states elect left wing governments.

Realistically, do you see a chance of you guys leaving the UK and joining the EU as an independent country?

There's definitely a fairly large chance of it happening yes. It depends what happens next. If people start to lose their anger over the situation or if the UK gets a pretty sweet deal or whatever it could make it difficult. Also if the media does what it did during the last Independence referendum, it'll be difficult.

[Deleted]

Then Cameron poisoned the chalice

But Boris was campaining to Leave, soo... technically he poisoned it himself for himself

But then again, like Triks said, he probably wanted to lose the ref in the end.

[Triks]

Oh and the result would've been?

I mean i've heard a lot of stuff like this. But NOONE (!) up to now said what could be improved. Greece can't afford to take any additional credits, the other Euro-Nations had very very big problems telling their voters why they spend billions and billions into a sinkhole.

The only alternative would've been to throw Greece out of Euro/EU and sacrifice them. This would've been much worse than what now happened. People don't understand what bankrupt means... it means the state can't pay rents/social benefits and so on anymore. You lose all your money on your bank account. It takes years to recover.

Just look at Argentina in the early 2000s.

Greece should have been giving the money without charge (I know it sounds naive but the situation was absurd) and a special commission formed and sent to audit and advice the government on how to reduce corruption and improve the failing institutions.

[Deleted]

But Boris was campaining to Leave, soo... technically he poisoned it himself for himself

But then again, like Triks said, he probably wanted to lose the ref in the end.

[Deleted]

Portugal's problem isn't much of corruption but of utter incompetence and bad banking investment decisions for the past 40 years. And behold, the Troika completely failed to attack the banking problem when they intervened in 2011. The tax machine in Portugal is actually one of the best in all EU, the problem is the tax money is used to save another bank every six months...

There is only one way to stop that, (that doesn't fuck everyone over) and that is to not give them money but to sell them money - If they need X money and are worth 2X well the government hands them X money, and in return takes X worth of stocks - This is the only way to fuck the right people over when banks needs money.

[Deleted]

Sadly it might be difficult. The European Parliament has a (centre) left wing majority. It's the council that has a lot of right wingers and they're elected by the member states. No real way for us to make member states elect left wing governments.

The problem isn't much because of the Council (which is mainly for real politik and less burocratic), but the way the commissioners are chosen.

[Deleted]

Austerity is cutting total real terms spending. Its what they did. It failed because it causes the economy to shrink so as to leave them in the same position they were in before the cuts were made, thereby leading to Germany demanding even more austerity. This is why austerity is futile and doesn't work. And before you bring up the example of Germany in the 2000's there was no real austerity because its cuts were offset by expansion across the rest of the eurozone block, so that there were no overall system wide cuts. This isn't the case post 2008. There was no offsetting expansion. It was true, real, austerity, which just doesn't work.

Well what's your alternative? How would you've fixed it?

I just hear you say: Austerity bad ... Austerity bad...

I had economics in school and university. I know the theory and i know that the crowding out effects actually could potentially lead to a factor < 1 so spending money could've no effect on GDP growth.

And still: where should the money have come from? AFAIK the UK paid nothing at all.

[Deleted]

Exactly - austerity was imposed without any idea how it would work.

The idea was never to make it work, it was always to teach them Med countries what a fucking balanced budget was.
- Should there have been a massive stimulus package at the same time? Yes, but nobody wanted to pay for it, so it didn't happen.

[Triks]

Sadly it might be difficult. The European Parliament has a (centre) left wing majority. It's the council that has a lot of right wingers and they're elected by the member states. No real way for us to make member states elect left wing governments.


There's definitely a fairly large chance of it happening yes. It depends what happens next. If people start to lose their anger over the situation or if the UK gets a pretty sweet deal or whatever it could make it difficult. Also if the media does what it did during the last Independence referendum, it'll be difficult.

I see .

[Kallisto]

That's the problem - "remain" couldn't explain that those are internal and not EU problems.

Was just that the leaders of remain couldn't. It was also some of them were blaming the EU for said problems to shift the blame of themselves. Cameron himself ran run of the most stupid remain campaigns one could possibly ask for. When he especially came out and said he hates the European Parliament you have to ask yourself "Well why are you leading the remain campaign?" You needed someone to be passionate about it. Almost Nichola Sturgeon like but acceptable both north and south of the border.

[Shadowmelded]

The problem isn't much because of the Council (which is mainly for real politik and less burocratic), but the way the commissioners are chosen.

Yeah but that can also be laid at the feet of the Council.

[nextormento]

There is only one way to stop that, (that doesn't fuck everyone over) and that is to not give them money but to sell them money - If they need X money and are worth 2X well the government hands them X money, and in return takes X worth of stocks - This is the only way to fuck the right people over when banks needs money.

Never thought you'd argue for nationalization of banks .

[Triks]

The idea was never to make it work, it was always to teach them Med countries what a fucking balanced budget was.
- Should there have been a massive stimulus package at the same time? Yes, but nobody wanted to pay for it, so it didn't happen.

Personally, I think the whole thing was given to people who didn't care about what they were doing. Even an accountancy student could have handled that shit-show better.

[Mayhem]

Yeah it's getting really disgusting.
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/sta...61311358955521
http://www.lbc.co.uk/im-so-scared-no...n-tears-132971
https://twitter.com/Leisha007/status/747421605018636288

I don't know how they put the genie back in the bottle now.

What the actual fuck?!

[Triks]

Was just that the leaders of remain couldn't. It was also some of them were blaming the EU for said problems to shift the blame of themselves. Cameron himself ran run of the most stupid remain campaigns one could possibly ask for. When he especially came out and said he hates the European Parliament you have to ask yourself "Well why are you leading the remain campaign?" You needed someone to be passionate about it. Almost Nichola Sturgeon like but acceptable both north and south of the border.

So basically, "Remain" didn't care and "Leave" don't really want to leave as Johnson wanted to appear "gallant" and Nigie-boy loves his EU salary.

I am speechless.

[Deleted]

What the actual fuck?!

That's what the world under UKIP rule would look like. Lovely place, right?

[Shadowmelded]

What the actual fuck?!

https://twitter.com/hashtag/postrefr...twgr%5Ehashtag if you want to kill any remaining faith in humanity (compilation here). Although I read a comment that was pretty accurate; "The thing about these new racist incidents is we don't know whether it's a genuine increase or if you just started paying attention"

[Deleted]

But that´s not what the EU is for. These are selfmade problems.

Is there actually anything you can blame on the EU?

That's the problem. The UK government decided to make poor people poorer and rich people richer. They could've counteracted by higher taxes for rich people and increased social benefits or increased investments into poorer regions. They did not. Because it's their idea of a liberal state.

Actually it was the UK government asking the EU in 2008: "please save our banks, our whole system is based on the finance sector". But for now, the EU is to blame? For what? UK vetoed all initiatives to regulate the finance market before and after 2008. That's not the EU. It's the UK stopping those regulations.

[Deleted]

So basically, "Remain" didn't care and "Leave" don't really want to leave as Johnson wanted to appear "gallant" and Nigie-boy loves his EU salary.

I am speechless.

Wasn't it like Remain was sure the country couldn't be crazy enough to vote leave so they would look stronger, while Nigel must be running a long troll.