BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Consternation]

Debatable. Plus something we'll likely never know since it didn't happen, although I suspect Scottish independence wouldn't have wiped $3 trillion off the global markets.

Debatable is it, feel free to convince me.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...right-now.html

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possibly - We don't really know - But then, who cares about 'facts' and 'experts'

Intelligent people care. But Scottish Nats only seem to care about them when it fits their agenda

[Slant]

I had a Frieslander colleague try to play the "I'm not dutch!" card and try to establish his right to different culture identity.
I told him I wasn't buying his claim that he was some sort of "flatland viking" who used to ride into battle on a "war cow" (he had said nothing along these lines).
He still gets mad when I bring it up.

Haha, as I said, we think they're a bit simple... we do a lot of jokes on their expense.

Why does a Frieslander take a match to bed? So he can check if the light's really out. :P

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Must be some old boarders, between our Friesland and yours there's a province called "Groningen" now ^^

What astonishes me the most about The Netherlands is how tiny it is, though. I swear, you guys have no problems just getting into a train at a moment's notice to drive to the whole other part of the country for work or to meet friends for an afternoon and then drive back home on the same day. You use trains like we use the subway!

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I've read somewhere that if both Westminster and Holyrood fully agrees to the separation, Spain will not veto a Scottish application.
Spain's constitution forbids the division of the spanish lands, so Catalonia cannot declare independence legitimately -- and ofc Madrid would never agree to it.

Constitutions can change... or is that not the case in Spain?

[Veggie50]

Haha, as I said, we think they're a bit simple... we do a lot of jokes on their expense.

Why does a Frieslander take a match to bed? So he can check if the light's really out. :P

We use those jokes for the Belgians... they're also interchangable with blondes.

Belgians have jokes about us being cheap. My favourite one is "How was copper wire invented? Two Dutchmen pulling on a penny"

What astonishes me the most about The Netherlands is how tiny it is, though. I swear, you guys have no problems just getting into a train at a moment's notice to drive to the whole other part of the country for work or to meet friends for an afternoon and then drive back home on the same day. You use trains like we use the subway!

Yes, that's easy to forget when you're Dutch though... Had friends over from Australia a while ago, and they asked if Amsterdam was far from where I lived. I was like "yea.. it's like an hour by train". They gave me some weird looks.

[Deleted]

Constitutions can change... or is that not the case in Spain?

They don't want Catalonia to go, so I highly doubt that they would change it in their favour

[Slant]

We use those jokes for the Belgians... they're also interchangable with blondes.

Belgians have jokes about us being cheap. My favourite one is "How was copper wire invented? Two Dutchmen pulling on a penny"

Haha, that's a good one. We do cheap jokes about the Scottish mostly.

[Maybach]

Doesn't UK export more to EU than the other way around? Why would an exit be beneficial to them, economically speaking? We're talking about the largest single market out there...

The UK has a £69 billion trade deficit with the EU

The EU exports far more to the UK than the other way around

[Deleted]

Haha, that's a good one. We do cheap jokes about the Scottish mostly.

Haha, same here

[Veggie50]

Haha, that's a good one. We do cheap jokes about the Scottish mostly.

Weren't you German?

[Shadowmelded]

Debatable is it, feel free to convince me.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...right-now.html

I have the sneaking suspicion that you'll never be convinced, no matter what I say. Fraser Nelson is a moron however (his recent antics merely confirm this) and the entire article is a) opinion and b) gish gallop. Independence wasn't based solely around oil (which is recovering btw), there's more to the Scottish economy than that, and while the price would have meant some tough decisions, he's factually incorrect about Scotland's ability to borrow and what their rating might be. Here's a quote from the report in case you cba reading it;

Even excluding North Sea output and calculating per capita GDP only by looking at onshore income, Scotland would qualify for our highest economic assessment. Higher GDP percapita, in our view, gives a country a broader potential tax and funding base to draw from, which supports creditworthiness.

His article is trash.

[Slant]

Weren't you German?

Yes, but that's the point. We don't have a poor region, so we borrow what I think is the English tradition of thinking of the Scottish as stingy people.

Horribly arrogant, isn't it? I never thought about it, to be honest.

[-primordial]

Hypocrisy pure hypocrisy. In less than 24 hours:

France threatens to open the boarder and send all immigrants in Calais over. (despite saying in March they wouldn't)
Germany, France and Italy refuse to talk with Britain until article 50 is submitted.
European commission president Jean-Claude Juncker let Britain to submit article 50 in 48 hours.

Oh and the same time all of those leaders somberly admit the EU needs to change.

Like I've said here before I am actually in favor of the idea of the European Union, and if it takes something a monumental as Britain leaving to fix it then I have no regrets. If it lives to become better then I would happily vote to join should an opportunity arise in the distant future. But for now is a corrupt, convoluted, bureaucratic mess.

So let me get this straight. You get invited to a house, you go there and trash talk & what not, then you say you'll leave.

And when you are asked how long before you actually leave, you expect to take your own sweet fucking time...!!!!

I understand EU/EEA is not perfect and some policies, i.e, benefits are exploited massively. Then change the system!!!!!! but the leave vote is worse than digging ones own grave. It is preparing a grave for generations to follow.

[nextormento]

Everyone here in Germany knew that the southern states would suffer short term, but we were convinced, still are, that in the long term, it'll be better for them.
History will prove us right or wrong. Either way, the southern states needed to wake up. Still need to wake up. The EU is not their piggy bank. They'll have to work on a way to sustain themselves.

It'll work or we'll stop caring.
If it does work, each of the parties involved will craft their own mythos.
-The north saved the south, hurrah!
-The south survived despite the north onslaught, yay!.

If it doesn't, the process is still marginally beneficial to the lending states, so we'll continue doing it. We can start planing on making it a festivity: it's year 2120, and the EU prepares to celebrate Greece's 50th bailout.

But, at some point down the line, we'll need to stop moralizing about it. Because neither are Germans are mischievous villains, not are the southern states lazy fucks.

[alexw]

Aren't they already rioting at Trafalgar Square?

No, not in the way I mean anyway.

The young should be out on the streets protesting day after day after day for weeks on end across every major city and town. And if the powers that be try to clear them out they should riot, every single time those powers that be try.

Its the only way the boomers who run the UK will pay the slightest bit of attention to the needs of the young who they are screwing over.

[Deleted]

Debatable is it, feel free to convince me.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...right-now.html

well the three trillion claim is immediately debunkable as nonsense, Scotland is not nearly important enough for that much money.
Second, Scotland currently breaks even - In short, while the spending would have to go away, the fiscal side of it would be rather similar.
Although this of course ignores the current economy, and how it might change following a departure from the union.

Intelligent people care. But Scottish Nats only seem to care about them when it fits their agenda

Ideologues dont care about reality? Oh my what a shocker.

[nextormento]

Just curious...

What is the record for maximum number of pages for a 'non mega thread' thread??? cause this is this one is certainly going towards a mega thread recognition.

The migrant/refugee crisis lasted for months before it was upgraded.

[-primordial]

I have to say, this is a surprisingly interesting thread. As much flaming as goes on here, it's been more constructive than many of the mega threads. You have to understand, something becomes a mega thread to compile it into a sort of GenOT trashcan so all the garbage is collected in one place, which makes it easier for mods to moderate.

Did I just diss the Gun Control thread? Hell yeah I did. :P

I agree majority of points raised on here, by both sides are valid. Clearly the remain camp's points are more valid... #biased

[Deleted]

Yes, but that's the point. We don't have a poor region, so we borrow what I think is the English tradition of thinking of the Scottish as stingy people.

Horribly arrogant, isn't it? I never thought about it, to be honest.

ok dont know where from germany you are, but I (Köln) never heared any joke about scottish people

[Deleted]

ok dont know where from germany you are, but I (Köln) never heared any joke about scottish people

you get the whole of NL for the same purpose

[Slant]

ok dont know where from germany you are, but I (Köln) never heared any joke about scottish people

I've heard some, but not many, I agree. But then, I haven't heard a genuinely new and funny joke in quite a long time in Germany.

[alexw]

Well what's your alternative? How would you've fixed it?

I just hear you say: Austerity bad ... Austerity bad...

I had economics in school and university. I know the theory and i know that the crowding out effects actually could potentially lead to a factor < 1 so spending money could've no effect on GDP growth.

And still: where should the money have come from? AFAIK the UK paid nothing at all.

There is no issue with crowding out, that would only apply if there was a shortage of economic resources such that the governmental sector was taking them away from the private sector. Crowding them out as you say.

Given the absurd levels of unemployment and underemployment across Europe (workers are your basic economic resource which all others derive from) there is absolutely no issue whatsoever with the availability of economic resources.

Rather what is needed is large scale fiscal expansion across the northern European block with a particular focus on Germany. Workers need substantial pay rises to make up for the two to three decades where wage growth was suppressed and kept lower than productivity growth. That would in turn raise consumption in those nations rebalancing them away from running such huge trade surpluses which is exporting deflation across the rest of Europe with such ruinous effects.

The losers from this would be the corporate sector which would see lower profits and executive pay, and the richest members of those societies which have taken for themselves the pay rises that could have been and didn't happen.

The overall boost to consumption would also correct the trade imbalances between Germany and southern Europe as southern Europe would now be competitive on unit labor costs. That in turn would fix their unemployment problems as being competitive with Germany and with German consumption rising they could start exporting to Germany to meet its increased demand.

All that increase in economic activity would then lead to higher tax revenues across the board fixing the governmental debt crisis's are seeing (though it is likely some debt forgiveness would be needed too).

Now none of what I have said here is surprising to economists. They know that this is what needs to happen (at least in the short term in the long term there needs to be fiscal transfers between regions with a proper central government). But Germany simply does not want to do this. Its elites would have to give up the gains they have made by impoverishing their own citizens by convincing them its a good thing (Germans are proud of their nations trade surplus which is mind boggingly stupid since its basically the same as saying we are screwing you over by paying you less than you are worth)