Legion's long wait

[Alopex Major]

I disagree 100%. It's releasing less than 2 years after WoD with new systems for dungeons and world quests and artifacts plus a new class along with a bunch of dungeons and two raids with plans for two more tiers. The wait and the amount of content seems to me to be right on par with Wrath. I have not a single clue what you're complaining about.

What "new systems for dungeons" would those be? Scaling? Because we have that already. Hmmm, I can't think of anything else that's new about the dungeons.

Daily quests aren't anything new, slapping a new UI onto them doesn't change what they are.

Artifacts are another ring/cloak grind.

So what exactly are we getting after two years of waiting, again?

[styil]

Legion took longer than expect to release and Warlords of Draenor was originally planned to last a single year. Blizzard has stated this multiple times now, but who I am to think random internet trolls on the forums actually go in search of information to educate themselves before spewing hate and lies all over the internet because their touchy feelings got hurt?

That reason is exactly the point of this thread. How could they even plan on WoD lasting for 1 year when they just had a 26 month long Mists of Pandaria expansion? They know that their Alpha's + Beta's take up almost a year alone, they've been making these expansions for 10 years now. Let alone months of development of patches and Legion content.

I don't believe that they actually believed that a 1 year WoD was realistic and achievable. There is just way too much to handwave. I believe that it would have been mentioned around the office, but I cannot believe that they were actively working to release Legion by November 2015. There has to be another explanation for WoD's 14+ month content drought,

[rda]

What "new systems for dungeons" would those be? Scaling? Because we have that already. Hmmm, I can't think of anything else that's new about the dungeons.

Daily quests aren't anything new, slapping a new UI onto them doesn't change what they are.

Artifacts are another ring/cloak grind.

So what exactly are we getting after two years of waiting, again?

Ability pruning. We are supposed to celebrate the fact that we can no longer put grounding totems and similar things. It is supposed to be great fun because it is more logical or whatever.

I am being sarcastic, obviously. Yes, you are right, nearly everything they do for Legion is a couple of changes to existing content. Most changes are unspectacular, a large part provide no gameplay, a waste of time to code, and several are serious steps back, they are making things worse instead of better (eg, PVP).

[SoulSoBreezy]

I don't think it is a waste of time. Unless we know exactly why it took 14+ months to release this expansion, and the measures they have taken to ensure that it won't happen again, then it's more than possible that it will keep happening (perhaps even moreso).

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I apologize for giving off an air of snark though.
OT: Expanding on previous statements Blizzard made, it's not unreasonable to think that they took longer because once development really got underway, the team wanted to implement more than what they knew WoD would deliver.

It's like they took WoD's estimated lifecycle and used that as a basis for the development time of Legion. Suddenly Legion "feature-creeps" and it's going to blow away the time budged WoD gave them. By this time it's much, much too late to course-correct WoD's timetables. Here're the choices:
1. Cut a lot of stuff from Legion and stick with the original timeline.
2. Screw the timeline, make Legion work at the cost of a repeat content gap.
They chose the latter.

So how does a producer, director or suit tackle this realistic scenario next time? We're seeing a bit of it.
Modular content is being put at the forefront. World quests, Timewalking, Order hall missions and Mythic+ are content platforms that are much easier to expand on for filler content as opposed to say, a dungeon, raid or Thal'dranath.
As they've said earlier, planning gaps between tiers will also be crucial. Past expansions have historically made the 2nd tier of content too short, and let's get past the hyperbole; BRF was the 2nd tier of Legion. Widening the gap between tiers by a few months, or maybe a bit further with a supplemental and small content patch would help.

So there's me sharing my thoughts =). In the end though, we'll never see a 100% satisfaction rate from anyone; that's just not how a beast like WoW works. WoW's still #1 with a big rusty bullet. In a way, every action they take is pioneering. Criticism is expected.

[rda]

Here're the choices:
1. Cut a lot of stuff from Legion and stick with the original timeline.
2. Screw the timeline, make Legion work at the cost of a repeat content gap.
They chose the latter.

Yet somehow Legion doesn't look much bigger than WoD in terms of content. Why all the heroic grandstanding with "screw the timeline to make it right", then coming with a couple of new difficulty modes for existing content, a fifteenth unnecessary class revamp, and huge gaping retrograde issues in PVP (parts of what they are doing for Legion we had already, it failed spectacularly)?

But, hey, I know, it's all supposed to come in many patches chock full of content that will undoubtedly follow. Yeah, I get it now.

BTW, after these patches will turn out to be about Facebook integration and a new take on getting +5 ilvls while doing the same instances, Ion might say something like "the idea of coming with many patches was a mistake, we knew it nearly right away; we tried to make it work, but we couldn't". I just wonder what the next "big idea" is going to be.

[ReVnX]

Yet somehow Legion doesn't look much bigger than WoD in terms of content. Why all the heroic grandstanding with "screw the timeline to make it right", then coming with a couple of new difficulty modes for existing content, a fifteenth unnecessary class revamp, and huge gaping retrograde issues in PVP (parts of what they are doing for Legion we had already, it failed spectacularly)?

But, hey, I know, it's all supposed to come in patches that will follow.

The thing is the downfall of WoD wasn't the start but rather the lack of content patches. WoD has only had a little over half a patch since we can't even count 6.1 and 6.2 was lackluster.

So I don't care if "Legion doesn't look much bigger than WoD in terms of content" as long as they keep delivering real content patches throughout the expansion

[rda]

The thing is the downfall of WoD wasn't the start but rather the lack of content patches. WoD has only had a little over half a patch since we can't even count 6.1 and 6.2 was lackluster.

So I don't care if "Legion doesn't look much bigger than WoD in terms of content" as long as they keep delivering real content patches throughout the expansion

Sure, sure, I said I get it, the new way is many big patches full of content.

Let's wait and see how this will go.

[ReVnX]

Sure, sure, let's wait and see.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying they will

[Seezer]

The kicker is that Legion doesn't look *at all* like a mountain of content the size commensurate with the time it is taking them to do it.

They spent too long redoing classes for the tenth time.

This is it. I've said this about WoD. Blizz keeps trying to reinvent the game that doesn't need reinventing.

-How much development time went into artifact weapons? Something we're going to get tired of after a month
-Class halls. Yeah, great. Again how much dev time was put into these. Something we'll get sick of seeing after a month or two
-Another talent overhaul. Not needed. Now even old abilities are now talents. Great...
-boatloads of new "3D ARMOR"

Blizzard needs to realize that Content will trump all. They don't need artifact weapons. Or class halls. Give us new dungeons with each content patch. Give us 3 tiers of raids. New BG's, etc. They really still haven't learned. People were so excited for WoD. And look how it turned out. Legion is going to be more of the same. I want to like it, but they are doing the same shit.

[Wolfie of Medivh]

What "new systems for dungeons" would those be? Scaling? Because we have that already. Hmmm, I can't think of anything else that's new about the dungeons.

Daily quests aren't anything new, slapping a new UI onto them doesn't change what they are.

Artifacts are another ring/cloak grind.

So what exactly are we getting after two years of waiting, again?

I'm in the Beta, and I can give some insight:

1) Dungeons aren't radically redone, though the ones that are there are exceptionally well done. They're very clean with lots of paths, good encounters with interesting mechanics and story progression. I think WoD did good with the dungeons they did have, and these match or beat them. I will note I have not gotten into Mythic dungeons yet, so I can't speak beyond Heroics at this point, but the content is good.

2) World Quests are in no way like Dailies. Dailies have a hub, you go there, you collect the quest, you do it, you get a reward. World quests work differently. They show up on your map randomly and for limited periods of time - some simple ones might only be active for 12 hours, where difficult group quests might be up for days. Rather than just being kill quests (which I will say there are some), they often involve unique mechanics. One I liked involved being placed by a Kirin Tor mage on the back of a racing mount, and collecting ley-line spots that generate all over the map, running you through random areas, a mechanic not seen anywhere else. A lot of the dailies reprise leveling quests, so if you leveled you'll know right what you're doing.

The biggest difference though between Dailies and World quests through is the sheer volume and the cycle of repetition. In MoP we got a random set of quests once and a while (The ones from the August Celestials that brought us to the temples, for instance), but it was the same each time. With World quests you choose what and when you want to do. Want to get a few friends and farm big spawns? That's fine. want to grind some mobs? Good, plenty of that. Want to do some vehicle quests or bombing runs? They're there. Just want to do some pet battles? In there too. PVP/e? Yep. Rewards vary too - Some just award gold, some offer Artifact tokens, some offer items, some offer order resources, some open other world quests.

With World quests, each day you get a faction request for assistance. You can stack up to 3 of these requests. Lets say you get your faction request from the Highmountain Tauren to help them. You need to do 4 quests. Do them and you get a nice chunk of rep and a box containing an artifact weapon token and some other goodies. You can do any 4 quests that appear to you. Want to do the quick easy ones and just get it done? Sure. Want to do some tough ones and get better rewards? you can. Your call.

It's a much bigger and more flexible system. I can see a lot more things going in. Don't just handwave it as "New dailies". I thought that going in too - and I was wrong.

3) Artifacts are not much like the cloak or ring - after the acquisition questline (which should take you about 30 minutes) you build it up just like Vanilla-Cata talent trees (actually, they really remind me of the Cata talent trees). You have choices where to put stuff. Choosing where and when are important calls - getting to some talents first can be giant power boons. And honestly, they're the exact opposite of the cloak or ring - those you had a set path, and most of your improvements happened in relation to raid tiers. Artifacts power up with everything you do - questing, World Quests, dungeons, raids, and I'm sure there's some PVP method (though I'm not a PVPer so sorry, no info there). If you just like exploring you'll find artifact tokens in chests and in the world, while if you're a raider you'll get them from boss kills and LFR competitions. Dungeon runners get them similarly. Nearly anything you like to do will be reflected in your growing artifact power.

We've got in Legion a game that has a strong base. The questing is good, the systems are interesting and extensible, the dungeons are very good and. There's a plan going forward. There are going to be some surprises I think. I have honestly not been this happy with the game since Wrath.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Yet somehow Legion doesn't look much bigger than WoD in terms of content. Why all the heroic grandstanding with "screw the timeline to make it right", then coming with a couple of new difficulty modes for existing content, a fifteenth unnecessary class revamp, and huge gaping retrograde issues in PVP (parts of what they are doing for Legion we had already, it failed spectacularly)?

But, hey, I know, it's all supposed to come in many patches chock full of content that will undoubtedly follow. Yeah, I get it now.

BTW, after these patches will turn out to be about Facebook integration and a new take on getting +5 ilvls while doing the same instances, Ion might say something like "the idea of coming with many patches was a mistake, we knew it nearly right away; we tried to make it work, but we couldn't". I just wonder what the next "big idea" is going to be.

Well, let's at least save the grumbling for when we can compare expansions as a whole, yeah?

[Wolfie of Medivh]

This is it. I've said this about WoD. Blizz keeps trying to reinvent the game that doesn't need reinventing.

-How much development time went into artifact weapons? Something we're going to get tired of after a month
-Class halls. Yeah, great. Again how much dev time was put into these. Something we'll get sick of seeing after a month or two
-Another talent overhaul. Not needed. Now even old abilities are now talents. Great...
-boatloads of new "3D ARMOR"

Blizzard needs to realize that Content will trump all. They don't need artifact weapons. Or class halls. Give us new dungeons with each content patch. Give us 3 tiers of raids. New BG's, etc. They really still haven't learned. People were so excited for WoD. And look how it turned out. Legion is going to be more of the same. I want to like it, but they are doing the same shit.

A lot of time. They're very beautiful as models and they're fun - there's a ton to do with them. It feels good. To those people who said that not getting a skill every level felt weak, well, this is how Blizz fixes for the Legion players. You feel constantly like you're growing, way more than just getting a lucky weapon drop. I've been playing about a month now in Beta and I haven't gotten bored of it, and being I'm not even half way done with my Doomhammer on my Beta "main" I'm pleased.

Class Halls, honestly, are a smaller part then you'd think. They've got nice functions but honestly, you won't be in them like you were in WoD's garrisons. They're there to do a task. I will say, however, that they're particularly well designed - I especially liked the Mage and Hunter areas. If you're the sort who hangs around in town, you'll likely be in Dal, not your ORder hall.

The Talents are a personal preference, but being I main an ENH shaman, I can say I like how it feels having some more choice - the ability to speed up or slow down my gameplay based on talent choices. I like the level of care Blizz has put into improving them. Compared to WoD's "Everyone's the same and we don't care if there's an obvious best one", they feel a lot more flexible (which to me is the buzzword of this expansion - everything feels flexible.)

.... So you're complaining about new armor? I'll admit I am still not deep into raiding or advanced dungeons so my gear is mostly leveling content stuff, so nothing extraordinary yet, but I can't see the problem with new armors. Would you just be fine with vanilla textures as long as they had higher stats? I don't get the complaint.

The game has to reinvent itself to be relevant. Putting out a new dungeon or raid tier doesn't do bunk if there's not new systems and new things to learn and adjust. THat's what keeps eyeballs on the game - not a new dungeon with Kobolds instead of Murlocs for just more gear.

Blizz says they have a long-term expansion plan of at least 3 tiers with at least 3 patches. I have no reason not to trust them at it. I will give them the benefit of the doubt. And before you whine they don't deserve it - they never promised you anything in WoD.

[rda]

The biggest difference though between Dailies and World quests through is the sheer volume and the cycle of repetition. In MoP we got a random set of quests once and a while (The ones from the August Celestials that brought us to the temples, for instance), but it was the same each time. With World quests you choose what and when you want to do.

Just in case, there are something like 1.5x *more* daily quests in MoP than there are world quests in Legion. And like you say yourself, many world quests are *repeats* of regular leveling quests.

It's not a much bigger system. More flexible, maybe, but it is not bigger, it is smaller. And if you want to say world quests are more varied and interesting, because some are for groups, then you don't remember things like cloud serpent dailies in MoP.

[Transmigration]

I've been playing MMOs for many years. I don't care about waiting two years between expansions. I'm used to it. What I want is a good expansion with a compelling story and replay value. I don't want shit expansions in half the time.

[Wolfie of Medivh]

Just in case, there are something like 1.5x *more* daily quests in MoP than there are world quests in Legion. And like you say yourself, many world quests are *repeats* of regular leveling quests.

It's not a much bigger system. More flexible, maybe, but it is not bigger, it is smaller. And if you want to say world quests are more varied and interesting, because some are for groups, then you don't remember things like cloud serpent dailies in MoP.

yes, and in MoP as soon as you hit exalted with that faction you didn't look at them ever again. I know I never did another Serpent Rider quest after I exalted them.

Also, consider that MoP is a full expansion - it had daily quests numbers that grew in 5.1, 5.2, 5.3 (I don't recall 5.4 adding many, feel free to correct me). I am gonna doubt that this was true in 5.0.

And I don't find anything wrong with repeating a quest - so long as it's not something I have to do every single day to get to a goal. I'm not a fan of collecting 10 boar butts every day. Once a week though? Not so bad. The quests they've chosen to repeat tend to be ones with more interesting or different mechanics, so the development on that isn't used once and put away.

[rda]

yes, and in MoP as soon as you hit exalted with that faction you didn't look at them ever again. I know I never did another Serpent Rider quest after I exalted them.

Also, consider that MoP is a full expansion - it had daily quests numbers that grew in 5.1, 5.2, 5.3 (I don't recall 5.4 adding many, feel free to correct me). I am gonna doubt that this was true in 5.0.

And I don't find anything wrong with repeating a quest - so long as it's not something I have to do every single day to get to a goal. I'm not a fan of collecting 10 boar butts every day. Once a week though? Not so bad. The quests they've chosen to repeat tend to be ones with more interesting or different mechanics, so the development on that isn't used once and put away.

If we take this particular area, the comparison of Legion to MoP looks like this:

(1) Legion has less gameplay and less variety (yes, 1.5x for MoP is with patches, without patches it's something like 1.1x for MoP, but many Legion world quests are repeats and MoP's aren't, so the difference in the amount of gameplay is significant).

(2) On the other hand, Legion has more reasons to keep doing the same things for longer (+5 ilvls).

Something similar happens in all other areas (save for PVP where what happens in Legion is just a total and complete clusterfuck).

If you like it, great, power to you. I don't, I want more content instead of less content and more difficulty modes and things that make you repeat it.

[Spiral Mage]

You can doubt it all you want, but there's been a big internal push for yearly content from Morheime, he believes the faster they push out expacs, the better, since there's always a big rush of customers (or there were .. LGN prolly won't see that, quite possibly the opposite) .. Morheime is an idiot who is completely out of touch with players and has no idea what goes in his own development department. He made a giant rant not horribly long ago, and "yearly expacs" was one of his goals for the future of WoW. So it isn't a big shock that they keep promising that, Morheime wants them to do that.

[Deleted]

I disagree 100%. It's releasing less than 2 years after WoD with new systems for dungeons and world quests and artifacts plus a new class along with a bunch of dungeons and two raids with plans for two more tiers. The wait and the amount of content seems to me to be right on par with Wrath. I have not a single clue what you're complaining about.

i totally agree with this , ..... legion is in my case one of the most anticipated packs they released since BC , ive bin playing this game since vanilla and i must say the changes that they bring in this exp p . are wow , .... i never did so much research on youtube/net to find out new things then i did ever before for a expansion . the raid tiers the dungeons , with adding more dungeons will they progress. artifact weapons , a new class to play despite its melee again , .... the world looks amazing the quests are well worked out , .... i truly look forward to this exp pack ... if they keep up with the content like they did in wrath and they keep up the same steady timeline i can see a chance of blizz propping up player base again ....

a happy player

[Pua]

WoD wasn't supposed to be happening.

When push comes to shove, this is where I’m landing.

For a number of years, Blizzard had said that they planned a couple of expansions in advance so that they knew where the story was going and didn’t have to guess about current storylines and how they’d play out. Warlords of Draenor, however, was only decided upon after the release of Mists; and that’s conceptually, not even from a feature or design point of view. Because Wrathion highlighted the return of the Burning Legion at the tail end of the Pandaria legendary quest line, they needed a MacGuffin in order to make it happen. That ended up being Garrosh, but the real intent was to find a way to bring Gul’dan back into the story.

As a result, something that could have been a small patch or short story ended up being (half) an expansion and the entire planning schedule was thrown out of sync.

They used the excuse that they were training designers for the sake of Warlords, so they can’t reuse it. That does, therefore, lead to the excuse of another 14-month wait being extremely weak. Warlords was ultimately shoved into the timeline as little more than a cash-grab so that the game would potentially make more sense to new players coming from the movie, and they clearly believed that Legion would be ready far sooner than it was. They also ended up with little motivation to extend Warlords, given how poorly it performed out of the gates and the frustration it caused amongst players.

The saddest part is that the game is now collapsing. There are dead realms everywhere, there’s no meaningful content, live servers were developmentally abandoned last June, and the community is at its own throat. Garrisons were a complete failure, Ashran didn’t work, the class and profession design was utterly deadpan, and 20-man Mythic has nigh-killed the top-end raiding scene as competitive guilds eat each other.

The problem is that, while Legion looks good, it’s potentially come an expansion too late to really arrest the slide. Player faith in designers is at an all-time low, an ignominy said designers have well earned, and another inexplicable 14-month wait was tacked on for good measure.

Now, obviously, this is speculation. I don’t have an “inside track”. But I think that if you were to ask everyone at Irvine who worked on Warlords of Draenor, if they were honest, they’d admit that it should never have happened.

Sadly, it did, and too many of us will remember it.

[Heeresman]

I don't think it is a waste of time. Unless we know exactly why it took 14+ months to release this expansion, and the measures they have taken to ensure that it won't happen again, then it's more than possible that it will keep happening (perhaps even moreso

Yes and the poster you quoted is still right: it still is a waste of time hypothesizing and umming and ahing and coming up with opinions of why the delay.
Blizzard tells the community what they want.
Doesn't matter how many posts like yours are spammed on this forum.
We will never get the answer (inside information).

I would guess that anyone who cares about waiting 14+ months for an expansion cares about their explanation. Their flimsy explanation has done nothing to ease my concerns about the current 14+ month content drought, let alone anything to ease my concerns about future content droughts. In fact I am even more concerned after this flimsy explanation

Be concerned all you want.
You aren't getting any other explanation from Blizzard.
Hard to understand?
No amount of disbelief or head-shaking at Blizzard's justifications or otherwise on content delay will ensure they will make a lengthy post somewhere finally alleviating your doubts and concerns as to content delays.
Not hard to understand this i would have thought.

I think the extreme delay of Legion is most certainly my business.

So....you have some options available to you:
1) Vote with your wallet
2) Make a post on MMO and inform forum members that you and others are not content with Blizzard's explanation of content delay
3) All of the above.

Option 2 is pointless (hint)

Hence the point of this thread.

The point of this thread is pointless. (Plenty of reasons why, i've pointed out a few).

I don't think you know the point of your own post.