BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Shalcker]

Nope the lender was not the main problem, they did not ask or force Greece to borrow. It is Greeces fault.

Lender is the problem after the fact that fraud was discovered.

Right response? Write it down as "money lost to fraud".
Wrong response? "Those money your old government (which you already voted out) got by cheating? You have to pay them back, in full, right now, and we'll be the ones deciding how it will be paid and which cuts you'll have to do to make payments."
...and that plan leads to misery of population and debt actually growing rather then shrinking. Debt slavery on country level. At some point you might even wonder if banks had that idea right from the start... but probably not. That would be giving too much credit to their foresight.

[Tinch]

In the EU the UK would have a say about all those laws affecting it. Outside the EU it will have no say in it at all. How do you not see this?

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So allowing the UK to have even more special treatment outside the EU will make the EU stronger?

The UK loses a higher proportion of votes than any other EU member. It's becoming increasingly clear that our vision of the future of the EU is different to the majority of other members.

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[Slant]

Who are you to say that? You are not in charge, reality is. A strong UK is in the EU's interest, and a strong EU is in the UK's interest. That gives you a hint at the nature of any deal that might be struck.

You realise that free movement is a big part of what makes the EU strong, right? It's a big part of the appeal for the average EU citizen. No border controls is the biggest positive impact the EU had for us. Driving from Germany, though the Netherlands, Belgium to France without once having to stop for a border check is awesome.

[Mayhem]

Who are you to say that? You are not in charge, reality is. A strong UK is in the EU's interest, and a strong EU is in the UK's interest. That gives you a hint at the nature of any deal that might be struck.

Interests put aside, the EU have to care for their people first, just like the UK. So they can´t give you a better deal than you already had because the citizens of the EU wouldn´t see it as fair and rightfuly so.

[Slant]

You are confusing access to the single market with membership of the single market. The World has access to the single market. The USA trades with the EU (in case you had not noticed), and that trade has increased over time. If the UK leaves the EU, then the UK will still have access to the single market. Therefore, you need to edit your post and correct it.

You have no idea how it feels like to "access" the single market from without, do you?

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Interests put aside, the EU have to care for their people first, just like the UK. So they can´t give you a better deal than you already had because the citizens of the EU wouldn´t see it as fair and rightfuly so.

Heck, they can't even give them a deal as good as the old one, to be honest. The most the UK can hope for is a deal similar to that of Norway. And that's a rather shitty downgrade to what they currently have. Otherwise Norway will start asking questions...

[Deleted]

You are confusing access to the single market with membership of the single market. The World has access to the single market. The USA trades with the EU (in case you had not noticed), and that trade has increased over time. If the UK leaves the EU, then the UK will still have access to the single market. Therefore, you need to edit your post and correct it.

yeah part of and access to are not the same thing - This discussion is always by necessity as the EU is a party to the WTO, about the former.

[-primordial]

I voted brexit because I believe we should have control over our own laws and I don't think we should remain on the path of further European integration that is undermining national sovereignty.

I still want to trade with the EU, cooperate with the EU in areas of mutual interest such as security and climate change, I just don't want political union or a European superstate.

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You cannot have it both ways mate. One cannot expect to stop people from coming to their land and and hope they are welcome elsewhere.

[Repefe]

Yes, absolutely.

Do you understand the irony when you say that from position of United Kingdom. We don't want superstate ... Scotland, you listen to us, you can't leave us for EU, we know better. Northern Ireland ... you are ours as well, do not question it. Giblartar ... we know you are far from us, but we own you, no EU for you either.

[Deleted]

You realise that free movement is a big part of what makes the EU strong, right? It's a big part of the appeal for the average EU citizen. No border controls is the biggest positive impact the EU had for us. Driving from Germany, though the Netherlands, Belgium to France without once having to stop for a border check is awesome.

its also a requirement for the common market to work, its an economy thing, it's non negotiable.

[Tinch]

Do you understand the irony when you say that from position of United Kingdom. We don't want superstate ... Scotland, you listen to us, you can't leave us for EU, we know better. Northern Ireland ... you are ours as well, do not question it. Giblartar ... we know you are far from us, but we own you, no EU for you either.

Scotland and Gibraltar have both democratically chosen to remain with us. If they wanted to leave then so be it, but they don't.

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[Mayhem]

Heck, they can't even give them a deal as good as the old one, to be honest. The most the UK can hope for is a deal similar to that of Norway. And that's a rather shitty downgrade to what they currently have. Otherwise Norway will start asking questions...

No doubt. I´m actually curious how they´re trying to convince the EU that london should remain the major EU financial trading hub.

[Sodia]

You are confusing access to the single market with membership of the single market. The World has access to the single market. The USA trades with the EU (in case you had not noticed), and that trade has increased over time. If the UK leaves the EU, then the UK will still have access to the single market. Therefore, you need to edit your post and correct it.

Yes but they still need to pay Vat when they Export something to EU, Now when UK is out they going to pay that as well ... And only that may kill a big chunk of Import/Export between EU/UK.

[Deleted]

Scotland and Gibraltar have both democratically chosen to remain with us. If they wanted to leave then so be it, but they don't.

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Because they thought it means remain in the EU. They would probably vote different now.

[Slant]

its also a requirement for the common market to work, its an economy thing, it's non negotiable.

Yes, I'm approaching it from a point of view that he might be able to understand. The whole "this is inseparatable" isn't something they actually believe, no matter how often we repeat it. They just can't make the connection between borders and goods/people. They think there's a magic way to somehow regulate borders in a sense that allows goods and EU citizens to pass unless they're seeking jobs or something.

[AeneasBK]

Do you understand the irony when you say that from position of United Kingdom. We don't want superstate ... Scotland, you listen to us, you can't leave us for EU, we know better. Northern Ireland ... you are ours as well, do not question it. Giblartar ... we know you are far from us, but we own you, no EU for you either.

Pretty sure you're welcome to ask Gibraltar where it wants to be and the actual people there will say "Part of UK plx"

Unless something has drastically changed.

[Slant]

No doubt. I´m actually curious how they´re trying to convince the EU that london should remain the major EU financial trading hub.

That isn't even up to the EU. It's not a decision that can be made. EU regulation requires the Eurozone regulators and similar institutions to be placed within the EU. I mean, heck, does anyone expect the EU to be the first country, erm region (I actually made the mistake :P) having their currency controlled by a foreign nation? Imagine the US fed being based in Canada...

[Deleted]

No doubt. I´m actually curious how they´re trying to convince the EU that london should remain the major EU financial trading hub.

yeah those negotiations are going to be awesome!
I love the City here - there was this guy that said that the CIty was an example of how the UK would have no trouble prospering outside the EU...

Just so divorced from reality

[AeneasBK]

Because they thought it means remain in the EU. They would probably vote different now.

The EU facet was just that. One of many in the debate about Scottish independence.

[Tinch]

Because they thought it means remain in the EU. They would probably vote different now.

Let's see if they do have their own referendums then. I'd confidently bet that both would choose remain.

[Mayhem]

Scotland and Gibraltar have both democratically chosen to remain with us. If they wanted to leave then so be it, but they don't.

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Doesn´t westminster have to agree to them leaving?