Why is exclusivity bad for WoW (and other MMOs)?

[Osmeric]

Umm excuse me but the que,sit,zone in,right click and win method of playing this game was made available until MoP really. When I say right click I really do mean people who right click and maybe use 1 spell and do 5k dps on lfr bosses. The game was at it's most successful peak when that method of play was not possible. Not even in wrath when LFD was introduced because they would kick the lazy fucks for thinking they can be rewarded for no effort.

So no sir you are WRONG.

So, a game mechanism that will be in the game for four expansions come Legion, that people like you have been whining massively about since before it went live, is not necessary?

No sir, you are obviously wrong. Blizzard would not continue to include such content against such opposition if their data told them they could get away with removing it.

Saying the game was at its most successful when it was harder proves nothing at all. That is mere correlation, and subsequent events conclusively show it there wasn't a causal link. The game was successful in spite of the end game being hardcore, not because of it.

[Saiona]

So, a game mechanism that will be in the game for four expansions come Legion, that people like you have been whining massively about since before it went live, is not necessary?

No sir, you are obviously wrong. Blizzard would not continue to include such content against such opposition if their data told them they could get away with removing it.

Saying the game was at its most successful when it was harder proves nothing at all. That is mere correlation, and subsequent events conclusively show it there wasn't a causal link. The game was successful in spite of the end game being hardcore, not because of it.

oh and I said "I'm sick of people.... etc" did you really think I was physically ailing because of it? Do you have a social disorder?

[Thrif]

Saying the game was at its most successful when it was harder proves nothing at all. That is mere correlation, and subsequent events conclusively show it there wasn't a causal link. The game was successful in spite of the end game being hardcore, not because of it.

What subsequent events, precisely?

[Osmeric]

What subsequent events, precisely?

The failure of hardcore endgame to ever attract more than a small fraction of the player population, despite having the best rewards.

The failure of the turn back to hardcore in Cataclysm to convince players to step up their game.

The failure of other more hardcore MMOs to sustain themselves (Rift in particular comes to mind).

The Cataclysm experience was defining, as you can tell from Blizzard's comments. They went ahead and said (quoted in the NY Times!) that making the game more hardcore wasn't realistic. The entitled hardcore fringe has been in denial about it ever since.

[darkwarrior42]

I'm just sick of people being able to que, sit in their base, zone in, right click the boss and get rewarded at the end of it. LFR is going to award these kids of people tier gear, potential for high ilv titanforged gear, and I believe potential for legendaries as well. Those people ruin it for everyone else. So the way to prevent that is to eliminate the que system or keep the rewards shit (as they are now)

What have they ruined for you?

This is a serious question. They zone into a mode that's below your skill level and get rewards that in no way, shape, or form impact you. It's not a directly competitive form of gameplay, and if it were, the minute chance they have of getting something on par with what you might get is not going to make them in any way, shape, or form magically geared and skilled enough to actually defeat you.

Is your sense of achievement and self-esteem tied not to the act, but to the shiny token you get at the end? When you watch the Olympics, do you think the winners of events are great athletes not by virtue of their victory or their athleticism, but because they have a shiny gold medal at the end?

To continue that metaphor, if we started handing gold medals out to everyone, the medals might not be as valuable, but the act itself would remain just as impressive. I might no longer look at someone with a gold medal and assume they're awesome, but if I see a great swimmer dominate the events, that will be impressive regardless of what token we give or don't give them to commemorate their victory.

So what aspect of the gameplay has been ruined?

[Sansnom]

Umm excuse me but the que,sit,zone in,right click and win method of playing this game was made available until MoP really. When I say right click I really do mean people who right click and maybe use 1 spell and do 5k dps on lfr bosses. The game was at it's most successful peak when that method of play was not possible. Not even in wrath when LFD was introduced because they would kick the lazy fucks for thinking they can be rewarded for no effort.

So no sir you are WRONG.

If that system was so successful, then I have to ask why did Blizzard introduced LFD and later LFR? Afterall, as you said, it was what made the game most successful and peaked.

[Osmeric]

oh and I said "I'm sick of people.... etc" did you really think I was physically ailing because of it? Do you have a social disorder?

I was sarcastically mocking your hysterical tone.

Of course you weren't actually sick. But you were disturbed enough to use that phrase despite it being false. You should have paused and asked yourself why you were writing something that was so silly.

[Pantalaimon]

I'm just sick of people being able to que, sit in their base, zone in, right click the boss and get rewarded at the end of it. LFR is going to award these kids of people tier gear, potential for high ilv titanforged gear, and I believe potential for legendaries as well. Those people ruin it for everyone else. So the way to prevent that is to eliminate the que system or keep the rewards shit (as they are now)

The problem really isn't with LFR in general, it is the easy mode lfr for the intended audience of players. If you had LFR in general be at the same level of difficulty as pre nerf lfr Lei Shen, where Thunderstrike would instantly kill you if you did not move, then I feel there would be a lot less complaining from other raiders about lfr.

[judgementofantonidas]

This is on topic of "we don't need 4 raid difficulties to cater to every playstyle". Why do people feel like exclusivity is bad? Raiding used to be THE level of awesomeness you wanted to achieve. Raiding used to be nearly exclusive to guilds only, thus forcing people to find a guild if they wanted to raid. You also needed to be somewhat "good" at the game and your class if you wanted to raid. There was no hand-holding, babysitting mode. There was one mode: raid mode. You were either a raider or you weren't. It gave (some/most) non-raiders something to work towards. When I first started playing and saw everyone in their awesome raid gear, it made me want to get better. That desire pushed me into theorycrafting and made me a better player. Having that proverbial carrot-on-a-stick is healthy for the game because it breeds better players in the end, and I think we can all agree (maybe?) that the skill level of the average player has dropped considerably over the years. Why? Because there isn't just one "raid mode" anymore, you have a figurative slider bar that lets you see raid content at your skill level. For some/most, they're content doing LFR or pugging through the LFG system, even despite the better gear in heroic and mythic. They're seeing the content, getting SOME sort of character advancement, and the game ends there. Waving Mythic gear in front of people's faces isn't enough to make them want to go out and "get good" anymore like it used to.

I know common rebuttals to this usually go something like, "Well, Blizzard doesn't want to spend dev money on something that only a fraction of the players will ever see" blah blah blah. I get this point, but its very easy to justify exclusive content when the game's better days had exclusive content. When every player gets to see the Super Bowl (albeit a watered-down one), there's no drive to see a "slightly-harder mode" of the same Super Bowl.

The answer is that exclusivity is not bad. Unless you are a business trying to make money. Then exclusivity needs to cost more for the exclusive few. Which wow premium content does not.

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I am not asking for the same gear or access to the same other stuff other players get.

"I pay the same to play it as you"

pretty much you are.

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It's bad for the commuity spirit if the endgame is made completely unaccessible for everyone who can't invest enough time into hardcore raiding. People who pay the same money for the game should be able to at least see the story, even if the rewards are crap.

I see LFR as more like a demo of the actual raid. Some may be content with it and some may want more. But a wider selection of options has never been bad for any game.

For your 14 dollars, or someone elses 20 dollars and your gold you have the same access as ANY OTHER PLAYER. You can blithely waltz up to the same instance entrance as we do herb pots in hand and even step foot in it by simply inviting one other friend. Same access. What you are lacking is the desire or ability to complete the content that is behind that door. Nobody has EVER been denied access to ANY content in the game.

[Darththeo]

I'm just sick of people being able to que, sit in their base, zone in, right click the boss and get rewarded at the end of it. LFR is going to award these kids of people tier gear, potential for high ilv titanforged gear, and I believe potential for legendaries as well. Those people ruin it for everyone else. So the way to prevent that is to eliminate the que system or keep the rewards shit (as they are now)

You are aware that you get better gear with less effort in WoD than doing LFR? My problem is there is literally no reason to do LFR at all and it offers no challenge if you choose to do it.

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"I pay the same to play it as you"

pretty much you are.

False, you can only make the argument if you assume that gear and other stuff = content ... which it doesn't.

[Deleted]

Special snowflaking much?

You need to understand that this is a game. I pay the same to play it as you, I should be denied content because I am not as good as you are? And because I can't get as good as you because people don't want the particular class/spec I want to play? The super bowl analogy doesn't work as all teams have a chance to see the Super Bowl, in the old way, not everyone had a chance to see content.

Also added, that what do you give Raiders who beat the raid and were fully geared to max? There was nothing ... by adding other difficulties it allowed raiders to do more.

Edit: I am editing this point do to an assumption people are making. I am not asking for the same gear or access to the same other stuff other players get. By content I am referring to story and the progression of said story.

How are you denied access to content? Mmorpgs are about progression. You can reach the same tier as him by playing enough.

[judgementofantonidas]

How are you denied access to content? Mmorpgs are about progression. You can reach the same tier as him by playing enough.

just another "I should be entitled to everything you earn, but without similar effort because I pay the same sub fee" person.

[zmp]

LFR is great for clearing current raid content and drama on wipes.

[Spiral Mage]

It's funny seeing people say that they pay for the game, so they deserve to be able to be bad at it. News flash, you can pay for anything you want but if you're bad at it, no one's going to want to work with you. Not in a game, not in real life, not anywhere.

All raiding ever did, was ask you to play the game correctly. There's not a game in the world, right down to fuckin' Checkers that doesn't have rules, require some thought and a bit of willingness to learn but for some outlandish reason, people find WoW asking you to do that, completely unreasonable.

People thrive on a sense of accomplish but now, people don't want to work for it, they just want a false sense of accomplishment handed to them.

[Kryos]

I don't really know how to respond to how stupid this response is. I didn't ignore the fact because time doesn't yield better players ... I have more play time than better players than and I play better than people with more time played than I have. How is time a factor at all? There was some people who will just be better. Time yields to being better players, but it isn't the default factor or even a deciding factor. I am sorry, but this was a waste of my time even to read.

I am asking for a difficulty that I can perform at and see the story. If that is a special snowflake to you, the only way that is true if you think literally everyone is a special snowflake.

If you have the same time, then invest them in the same tasks and you will get the same results. If you decide to invest the time in different tasks, why do you expect the same results? PVE WoW isn't really hard and invested time (=practice) is the main factor that seperates the players. Even mythic just expects you to pay attention and learn to press some buttons in the right order. Everyone can learn that if they invest the work to learn it. Yes, for some this is more difficult than for others, but it's not really hard (not like learning quantum physics or how to perform open heart surgery).

If you talk about PVP that's a different story since you fight against other humans and even if you know what buttons to press, they are clever and can always outsmart you.

[Incarnia]

Exclusivity isn't bad, but it can be - depending on what exactly it is that's exclusive.
Options are not a bad thing, but the options can become "boring" and bland, thus player motivation drops - and that's not good.

I'm not happy with LRF, not at all. Especially when it is so ridiculously easy it's mind numbing. In WoD this has been painfully noticeable. Sure in MoP we had the stupids and the assholes too - but at least it wasn't a total snooze, and toxic (or really bad) players did get kicked out. Ppl actually had to work together on quite many bosses to be able to beat the encounters. Wiping a couple of times to the same encounter wasn't terribly uncommon, and yet ppl didn't completely loose their fucking minds lashing out at anyone and everything.
I don't see the point in making it too easy, why would players want that? A complete no challenge version? Even if they're "only" after the story that to me still doesn't make sense. And I don't see how this is helpful to the community on a larger scale either, all it does is widening the gap between players even further. The silence if you wish.

3 difficulties would be great imo.
1 LFR would be the equivalent of today's Normal mode (or at least close to it). Then Heroic(fixed size) and Mythic(fixed size). Personally I'd love to see 10man return, the encounters don't need to be identical in difficulty - the two never competed against each other on world firsts anyway.
Regarding Mythic 10 and 20, make the end boss on M20 drop really bad ass Transmog Gear (which gets removed with next expansion) and a mount - just to distinguish the raid sizes from each other in a way. Keeping a rooster of some 20+ raiders IS more work than managing 10 - that should get rewarded, imo. Ilvl should be the identical between the diff difficulties though - some bosses will be harder on 10m, some will be harder on 20m, it evens out in the end.

[Darththeo]

If you have the same time, then invest them in the same tasks and you will get the same results. If you decide to invest the time in different tasks, why do you expect the same results? PVE WoW isn't really hard and invested time (=practice) is the main factor that seperates the players. Even mythic just expects you to pay attention and learn to press some buttons in the right order. Everyone can learn that if they invest the work to learn it. Yes, for some this is more difficult than for others, but it's not really hard (not like learning quantum physics or how to perform open heart surgery).

If you talk about PVP that's a different story since you fight against other humans and even if you know what buttons to press, they are clever and can always outsmart you.

You never taught people anything have you? No, there are some people who will pick it up in a few hours, some will take days, etc ... the amount of time it takes to learn isn't the same.

[Sansnom]

It's funny seeing people say that they pay for the game, so they deserve to be able to be bad at it. News flash, you can pay for anything you want but if you're bad at it, no one's going to want to work with you. Not in a game, not in real life, not anywhere.

All raiding ever did, was ask you to play the game correctly. There's not a game in the world, right down to fuckin' Checkers that doesn't have rules, require some thought and a bit of willingness to learn but for some outlandish reason, people find WoW asking you to do that, completely unreasonable.

People thrive on a sense of accomplish but now, people don't want to work for it, they just want a false sense of accomplishment handed to them.

Nope. This is a general misconception that people like you seems to enjoy clinging and jumping to. It is not all just about being "bad" as you call them. Yes, the range of the skill of player is every wide. If not, then everyone should be able to compete to world first.

Raiding requires a schedule commitment that many cannot make. You could say they can join a guild that suits them. Really? Not everyone joins based on what activites and schedule it offers. I always though guilds were primary people who likes playing and socialize together rather than acting as gateway to access content.

Every game, every club, every sporting activities have different levels for different skilled people. So why should raiding be any different?

[Pantalaimon]

Raiding requires a schedule commitment that many cannot make.

Actually no. Contrary to popular belief the LFG tool entirely replaces the need for a guild in order to raid if you're wanting to raid lower than Mythic. The tool gives you access to players from any realm in your region at any timezone. This means you aren't stuck with bad pugs from your realm. Plenty of realms have good pugs with only moderate requirements to join that can fully clear raids in 1-2 nights. However, with LFG you don't even need to spend a whole night to raid either because you are left with the open choice to join a pug that is at a certain boss, or that will only go til a certain point in the raid. The tool has made the experience of raiding VERY flexible.

You don't need a schedule to raid normal or heroic content.

[judgementofantonidas]

You are aware that you get better gear with less effort in WoD than doing LFR? My problem is there is literally no reason to do LFR at all and it offers no challenge if you choose to do it.

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False, you can only make the argument if you assume that gear and other stuff = content ... which it doesn't.

gear is inevitably what the unwashed masses complain about.