BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Noradin]

Lender is the problem after the fact that fraud was discovered.

Right response? Write it down as "money lost to fraud".
Wrong response? "Those money your old government (which you already voted out) got by cheating? You have to pay them back, in full, right now, and we'll be the ones deciding how it will be paid and which cuts you'll have to do to make payments."
...and that plan leads to misery of population and debt actually growing rather then shrinking. Debt slavery on country level. At some point you might even wonder if banks had that idea right from the start... but probably not. That would be giving too much credit to their foresight.

So you are proposing that all agreements between countries end with the end of term?

[Deleted]

Technically speaking 41.5% of Scotland voted to remain, 25.5% voted to leave and 33% didn't care either way (which I think way his point).

But t echnically only 35% voted for Brexit. That is far from a clear democratic mandate. Actually nearly all constitutions require a 2/3 third majority to big changes like this. That was to prevent rage decisions and to ensure those changes need a big maority to happen.

[Deleted]

this is why i voted leave. yes, we are going to take a hit economically (i knew this prior, and expected it). our taxes are likely to rise maybe 2-2.5%. the economy will not be as bad as it was in 2008 however and it will recover quicker than the 2008 recession did. afterwards i fully expect the country to be in a better position. sure, that mother of 3 may not see money in her pocket go up but if NHS prescriptions go down 5%, if her child support money goes up £10/week, if public transport for her children to go school goes down by 5p/journey, the mother of 3 will be happy.

not everyone in the UK has had the opportunities 18-24 voters today have had. that's what these young people are forgetting.

Sadly none of that will actually happen. What you have actually voted for is a massive amount of uncertainty in the short/medium term leading to lower foreign investment, firms delaying decisions, inflation etc.

The irony is that all this will hit the poorest more than anyone. They will pay the price in terms of fewer jobs, higher living costs, and tax increases. The working class has actually voted against their own interests.

At best in the long term things won't be so bad, we might get back to a point where we are only slightly worse off than we would have been within the EU. But that's the best case scenario and by no means a certainty. That scenario will also probably involve being a part of the single market, so basically accepting all the EU rules and paying most of the costs we do now, but with zero representation. And that is the best we can hope for in the long run.

There will be no extra money for the NHS or whatever, even the leave campaign admitted this a day or two after they won along with backtracking on the rest of their 'promises'. You don't get extra funding for public services by diminishing your economy, and if we remain in the single market (which we really need to) then there won't really be any savings from leaving the EU either.

I'm sorry but by voting leave you have made things worse for the poorest people not better.

[Mayhem]

If the UK demands more Continential EU goods, those EU firms benefit, and vice verca: Everyone gains. The rise of Chinese and Russian power reinforces the necessity of a good deal between the UK and EU. Never mind the fact France and Germany have elections next year, and the big industrialists in those countires will be pushing for a good deal too. Nothing stops you putting your head into the sand and pretending none of these realities exist, but that would an error. The relative fragility of the Euro zone economies mean policy makers can not sustain an economic hit, as it will see government lose elections. Of course you get the angry kids screaming about taking 'revenge' on the UK. Hot air. Global economic pressures and the shifing sands of power are the antidote to that simplistic and naive position.

Ah, and the next one thinking that the german and french population will help the UK get a better deal by letting themselves be hold hostage. Yes, because after the royal fuck-up that totally makes sense.

[nextormento]

Well, the argument is rather simple: We have all the money, Greece has jack shit. Economist theories be economist theories, but we call what happens with our money. Deal with it. Political reality here for a second: Explaining to German citizens that their tax money is blown into a corrupt Government to finance yachts for some officials? That's never going to happen. How's that for an argument? I think it's pretty fucking awesome as far as arguments go. This really is the end of the line, too. Nobody here gives two shits about what some China based economist thinks about how we spend our tax money. Much less do we care about how Tsipras thinks our money should be spent. We're happy to help out, but they should show some humility and gratefulness. Calling us nazis and bitching about it won't change that I am - quite literally - feeding someone in Greece.

First, you don't have all the money, just most of it; I'm feeding some Greek too.
That's not an argument: just an exposition of how the deals proceed and tough titties if they disagree.
That Germany has some opinions of her own is understandable. That they don't want to commit political suicide is also understandable.

But this is not about the bailouts but about how Germany pulled herself up by her bootstraps. Understanding how those policies ripple through the EZ, and if the paradigm could ever be implemented in other states.

Humility and gratefulness will be showed in exchange for sympathy and magnanimity.
Neither of which is part of international agreements. You are deliberately mixing public opinion with government action in an appeal to emotion. It's lame.

[Noradin]

We're happy to help out, but they should show some humility and gratefulness.

No need for a show of humility, a show of a workable plan and some reforms would be nice, though.

[Deleted]

If the UK demands more Continential EU goods, those EU firms benefit, and vice verca: Everyone gains. The rise of Chinese and Russian power reinforces the necessity of a good deal between the UK and EU. Never mind the fact France and Germany have elections next year, and the big industrialists in those countires will be pushing for a good deal too. Nothing stops you putting your head into the sand and pretending none of these realities exist, but that would an error. The relative fragility of the Euro zone economies mean policy makers can not sustain an economic hit, as it will see government lose elections. Of course you get the angry kids screaming about taking 'revenge' on the UK. Hot air. Global economic pressures and the shifing sands of power are the antidote to that simplistic and naive position.

Actually the german industry said that they are absolutely okay if the EU is consequent. According to them it is much more important to keep the 27 together and united.

The risk of losing the single market is valued much higher than the profit from including UK.

In the end you will be offeredvEEA with much worse conditions than your current EU membetship.

[Draco-Onis]

If the UK demands more Continential EU goods, those EU firms benefit, and vice verca: Everyone gains. The rise of Chinese and Russian power reinforces the necessity of a good deal between the UK and EU. Never mind the fact France and Germany have elections next year, and the big industrialists in those countires will be pushing for a good deal too. Nothing stops you putting your head into the sand and pretending none of these realities exist, but that would an error. The relative fragility of the Euro zone economies mean policy makers can not sustain an economic hit, as it will see government lose elections. Of course you get the angry kids screaming about taking 'revenge' on the UK. Hot air. Global economic pressures and the shifing sands of power are the antidote to that simplistic and naive position.

You are not taking into account the biggest elephant in the room, setting precedence and keeping the other countries from wanting to leave the EU. The fallback from giving the UK a better deal would mean the end of the EU as an organization, so far both Germany and France are in agreement that the UK has to get a worse deal or there is no point in membership. The best course of action for the UK would have been to leverage their membership to get an even better deal in terms of immigration, trade etc or use it to bring about change in the EU. When the UK quit they basically gave up any sort of leverage they had since keeping the EU together is paramount to all the remaining nations.

[Deleted]

You are not taking into account the biggest elephant in the room, setting precedence and keeping the other countries from wanting to leave the EU. The fallback from giving the UK a better deal would mean the end of the EU as an organization, so far both Germany and France are in agreement that the UK has to get a worse deal or there is no point in membership. The best course of action for the UK would have been to leverage their membership to get an even better deal in terms of immigration, trade etc or use it to bring about change in the EU. When the UK quit they basically gave up any sort of leverage they had since keeping the EU together is paramount to all the remaining nations.

That is why the industry even wants the UK to have a worse deal. A single market without UK would be a small problem. The instability when every EU members wants new cookies is much worse. It could be catastrophic.

[Sethanon]

If you ment the total electorate then you should have said that. You said "the whole uk" which suggests the total poulation.

I know brexiteers like to manipulate and deceive, but you can stop now, your only weakening your already weak argument.

Lol don't you think calling him manipulative is a bit childish? I think it was quite clear what he meant.

The truth is we remainers need to stop crying like children and work together to fix the shit we are in. We are too busy crying and not worrying about solving the issue. Look at labour.. they are a joke.

There can't be another vote, that would be the death of democracy. So we need to work with the EU to get the best deal we can.
I'm not a fan of the 'Free movement', I would prefer to keep the borders are they currently are, access but they can't just come in and claim benefits without ever working. But 'free movement' might be the lesser evil of getting a good trade deal.

I would prefer we strike a deal that lets us pay in and contribute, without having to sign up to the Schengen agreement. But that may not be possible with the way Germany currently like things done. Either way we need to strike a good deal asap.

Also someone said Slant should go into politics? I agree I picture him as a German version of Nigel Farage

[Deleted]

Of course you get the angry kids screaming about taking 'revenge' on the UK. Hot air. Global economic pressures and the shifing sands of power are the antidote to that simplistic and naive position.

It's not revenge. It's common sense. The EU can't give the UK all its current privileges when it is not part of the EU. How would that look? Everyone would leave the second it happened because if you're not part of the EU you can get better deals? That's not how it works.

[Noradin]

The best course of action for the UK would have been to leverage their membership to get an even better deal in terms of immigration, trade etc or use it to bring about change in the EU.

They overplayed their hand on that one already, anyway.

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I would prefer we strike a deal that lets us pay in and contribute, without having to sign up to the Schengen agreement.

You had that one, but you voted against it.

[Ulmita]

Can't believe that so many people are so stupid that they think Germany are the ones running things.

Why who is?

[Deleted]

Germany is the one who runs things, other ways are directly right-wing outcasts like the eastern countries who "plotted" to close the Balkan-route without them.

[Deleted]

I would prefer we strike a deal that lets us pay in and contribute, without having to sign up to the Schengen agreement.

Ahhahaahahahhahahaaahahahhaahahaaa

This is golden. I know you said you voted remain, but all the leavers seem to wish for the above quote. Do they realize that is exactly what they had?

[Triks]

John Kerry says that "Brexit could be walked back" and the markets and GBP are recovering. At this point I think only the leavers (and not all of them) believe this will go through.

[Sethanon]

Ahhahaahahahhahahaaahahahhaahahaaa

This is golden. I know you said you voted remain, but all the leavers seem to wish for the above quote. Do they realize that is exactly what they had?

Oh I know. I'm basically hoping our 'Good Deal' is for things to be as they are now.. But that is unlikely.

I think leavers actually believe they can have free trade without paying in or accepting free movement. If they somehow pull that off I'll be impressed, but until then I'll view them as delusional. I think the EU would have to collapse and reform/rebuild for that to ever happen.

[Kallisto]

I would prefer we strike a deal that lets us pay in and contribute, without having to sign up to the Schengen agreement. But that may not be possible with the way Germany currently like things done. Either way we need to strike a good deal asap.

So the status quo

[Deleted]

John Kerry says that "Brexit could be walked back" and the markets and GBP are recovering. At this point I think only the leavers (and not all of them) believe this will go through.

Not really; a lot of remainers believe we have to follow through. Everyone has to stop acting as if a do over is available for every fuck up.

Pretty much the only possible way I see us not exiting is if we have a referendum on the terms of exit and bundled approaches to try for, also with an option to stay as we are. That would rightly piss off a lot of people all over the EU and a lot of Brits are incapable of saying "I was wrong." (they might do it in a secret ballot though,... might!).

Hell, we are only in this mess because most people cannot say "I don't know. I should find out"

The opposition has fucked the dog on trying to approach it by having a GE soon and electing a govt. on the manifesto pledge of not leaving.

[Iphie]

John Kerry says that "Brexit could be walked back" and the markets and GBP are recovering. At this point I think only the leavers (and not all of them) believe this will go through.

Kerry can say what he want, what counts is what the EU and UK officials say and so far it seems that the EU considers this irreversible and the UK is not really advancing the process.