BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Gaidax]

Why are you so hateful?

Probably he does not realize that this is playing in Scotland's favor in their independence bid.

[Tinch]

He said "Scotland does not have the competence" but that's only because they're a member of the UK. If Scotland was independent, they would have the competence to hold negotiations.

They will have even more reason to reject Scottish negotiations if they ever left the UK because they're worried about the independence movement in Catalonia.

[Shalcker]

Yes they were uninformed. There is nothing to gain from LEAVING THE EU

How about security in ability to close borders whenever they want? However misguided you might think it is, it's real need in minds of many people.

Lots of posters here seem to assume that "freedom of movement" will remain one way or another, most likely as requirement to stay in agreements for access to European market as before - "same as before for UK, just without ability to affect any future changes". There are even mentions of Merkel saying that freedom of movement is paramount and Switzerland is going to lose access to European market after voting against it on their referendum.

But then you're making it into "us vs them trying to push free movement of muslim terrorists into our country", and that is obvious losing proposition... nor it is likely that public will respond well to EU blackmail over market access with pleas "oh, please, submit to EU demands, or our life will be so much worse!"

[Cosmic Janitor]

Why are you so hateful?

I mean the leavers are a bit in defensive mode atm. The whole world is laughing at them for how they crashed their country because they bought the most outrageous lies.

[Shadowmelded]

They will have even more reason to reject Scottish negotiations if they ever left the UK because they're worried about the independence movement in Catalonia.

They've already stated that the two situations aren't comparable. If Scotland becomes independent legally, in line with the constitution, they'll have no reason to block it because Spain's constitution doesn't allow for secession at all.

[Tinch]

I mean the leavers are a bit in defensive mode atm. The whole world is laughing at them for how they crashed their country because they bought the most outrageous lies.

Please enlighten us about how our country has 'crashed'.

So many people that can predict the future in this thread. All we know up to this point is that the markets have recovered, the pound is down and there are some more risks ahead due to the uncertainty before negotiations get underway.

Whether they come true or not no one knows, so lets stop pretending anyone knows exactly what is going to happen either way.

[Kronik85]

17.4 million people voted to leave the EU.

And 16.1 million voted to stay. It was not a definitive win for Leave and if you called a second referendum today I can guarantee you that Stay would win by a much larger margin.

Were they all stupid and misinformed?

They were informed that the economy would go down the toilet, they were informed that to gain access to the Single Market they would still need to accept Freedom of Movement and EU legislation yet a good number of people decided to use their vote as a protest vote on completely unrelated issues. So yes they were fucking stupid (that's a few steps up from standard stupid).

Depriving people of the ability to vote for their leaders, whether they are misinformed or not, is tyrannical. Inform them better, or you know, actually respond to their concerns.

You're right, this is a disaster of Westminsters making. Every concern we had could have been solved within the EU using our own legislature, instead the parties were happy to scapegoat.

On another note, anyone seen the BoZo the PM in waiting yet?

[Tinch]

They've already stated that the two situations aren't comparable. If Scotland becomes independent legally, in line with the constitution, they'll have no reason to block it because Spain's constitution doesn't allow for secession at all.

And when Scots are told that if they leave the UK to join the EU that they will have to adopt the euro, how do you think that will go down?

[TheTaurenOrc]

They were outright lied to with this 350 millions per week thing. It is not a small lie there and this lie is basically what led to this narrow outcome.

The 350 million a week was absolutely true, they just didn't embellish the rebate and what we would otherwise pay to be part of the open market. The Remain claims it would come to 147 million a week, which is probably the single most stupid thing they did the whole campaign. Did they really think that was going to reassure the working class!?

[Tinch]

You're right, this is a disaster of Westminsters making. Every concern we had could have been solved within the EU using our own legislature, instead the parties were happy to scapegoat.

On another note, anyone seen the BoZo the PM in waiting yet?

Please tell me how we could have addressed the issue of freedom of movement with our own legislature?

[Shadowmelded]

And when Scots are told that if they leave the UK to join the EU that they will have to adopt the euro, how do you think that will go down?

All these moving goalposts. You just have to promise to join the Euro, you don't actually have to (see, Sweden, Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic). There's no way to force a member state to join the ERMII and we wouldn't meet the convergence criteria in the first place (you have to have no more than a 3% of GDP budget deficit and we currently have 8%).

[Kronik85]

Although it was not one of my main concerns, please tell me how we could have addressed the issue of freedom of movement with our own legislature?

51% of our immigration comes from outside the EU which we are fully in control of.

[Tinch]

All these moving goalposts. You just have to promise to join the Euro, you don't actually have to (see, Sweden, Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic). There's no way to force a member state to join the ERMII and we wouldn't meet the convergence criteria in the first place (you have to have no more than a 3% of GDP budget deficit and we would have 8%~ in the short term).

Wasn't trying to move the goalposts, just assumed you were Scottish and was curious about your response. Spain have consistently poured cold water on the idea of Scotland joining the EU, unless you have any quotes from their government that suggest otherwise, I am inclined to believe what they say.

[Repefe]

But then you're making it into "us vs them trying to push free movement of muslim terrorists into our country", and that is obvious losing proposition... nor it is likely that public will respond well to EU blackmail over market access with pleas "oh, please, submit to EU demands, or our life will be so much worse!"

You are making a drama out of simple situation. Nobody is forcing UK to be part of EU's free market at all cost. The main criterias are clearly defined and if UK can't follow them, EU will make a different deal with them, that's it.

[Tinch]

51% of our immigration comes from outside the EU which we are fully in control of.

Not answering the question is it. What about the 49% that comes from the EU?

[caervek]

51% of our immigration comes from outside the EU which we are fully in control of.

That's a problem in itself, it should be way more than 51% but we can only take in so many immigrants a year (countries housing/infrastructure can only grow so fast) so we are forced to limit the non-EU immigration. The fact anyone from the EU is free to come here means we have to turn away people with the skills/knowledge we need in order to let in a random uneducated eastern European.

[Shadowmelded]

Wasn't trying to move the goalposts, just assumed you were Scottish and was curious about your response. Spain have consistently poured cold water on the idea of Scotland joining the EU, unless you have any quotes from their government that suggest otherwise, I am inclined to believe what they say.

I am Scottish, it was just strange how we went from Spain to the Euro.

As for quotes:

But yesterday Spanish Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo insisted his country would not raise any objection to European Union recognition - if Scottish independence was accepted by Westminster.
(...)
Mr Garcia-Margallo said: "If in the UK both parties agree that this is consistent with their constitutional order, written or unwritten, Spain would have nothing to say, just that this does not affect us.

"No one would object to a consented independence of Scotland."

He said the independence of Kosovo was different because it was based on a "unilateral decision" and admitted the Spanish position would have been different if it had been agreed between Belgrade and Pristina.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/304...and-joining-EU

[Repefe]

And when Scots are told that if they leave the UK to join the EU that they will have to adopt the euro, how do you think that will go down?

You can't be forced to adopt EURO just like that. There are conditions that country have to successfully pass to be able to join EURO.

[Deleted]

Its alright guys, Corbyns safe, Alexis Tspiras has backed him.

You can't make this shit up.

[Deleted]

And 16.1 million voted to stay. It was not a definitive win for Leave and if you called a second referendum today I can guarantee you that Stay would win by a much larger margin.

It seems to me that it was mostly London and Scotland that voted to remain. London is populated by a lot of many generation immigrants, so they have a bias.

We will see what happens. Maybe people will become so impoverished that they will want to return, or maybe the country will take the pain and adapt and be better for it.