Furious Slash is excessive and unnecessary

[OneSent]

To me, Furious Slash feels like an ability that was throw into the spec to appease the people who just can't stand to have one second of downtime in their rotation.

The button-mashers, who claim a spec feels "too slow" if they don't have something to press every single GCD.

At the end of the day, Furious Slash just ends up feeling like Wild Strike. It even has the same 'wet fart' sound effect.

[Uoyredrum]

Didn't blizzard say they were happy with how the specs played and wouldn't be changing anything major before launch? Not that I disagree, I just remember them saying that despite a ton of complaints about the current playstyle (sounds familiar).

[Murlocbait]

Didn't blizzard say they were happy with how the specs played and wouldn't be changing anything major before launch? Not that I disagree, I just remember them saying that despite a ton of complaints about the current playstyle (sounds familiar).

Yeah, but since stating that, they have made a few pretty big changes. And what Archi suggests is not a major change, really, just mushing too abilities together. Really no bigger than the Tactician change that came after they said that they were done.

[Warriorsarri]

Archi, if you want to include Legendarys, you'd also need to track the CC legendary, so you can utilize the Haste proc form it as often as possible. If you let it proc on CD it has some real good haste on it.

[caervek]

Despite going out of my way to better prioritize Furious Slash, you'll see I only managed to use it 15 times in 3 minutes.

Sorry but I don't see any issue, the fact you used it shows it has a place/purpose, without it the would have been nothing to press except heroic throw or something. 5 times a minute is still more usage than Dragon Roar or Odyn's Fury, are you saying they should be removed too? And another point is that you're using your talent choice of Wrecking Ball to backup your conclusion but the same conclusion won't apply to players who prefer Avatar.

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To me, Furious Slash feels like an ability that was throw into the spec to appease the people who just can't stand to have one second of downtime in their rotation.

You mean fury warriors? :P

[Feril]

I don't really like abilities that don't "generate" or "spend" resource and just... I don't know... buff another ability that activates yet another one.

Also, it's terrible that it only has ONE animation. Yeah, every other attack has just one animation, but mashable ones should at least have two alternating animations.

They should mesh Bloodthirst and Furious Slash: generates rage, has an increasing chance of activating Raging Blow, heals (can't occur more than once in 4 or 5 sec) and has at least two animations. Then you can put a talent or something that gives it a cooldown, for the slower paced attack-favoring players.

It's just that Furious Slash feels a bit empty. At least it was a spender before. I'd prefer it as a generator, though.

They could do some cooler stuff with it: instead of generating rage on each hit, each attack stacks a buff on yourself that gives you a bit of rage each second or something (maybe you don't generate rage with autoattacks?), AND stacks a heal on you for a bit (building upon my previous idea of merging it with Bloodthirst). That way, it would feel as if constant combat is what keeps you going.

So yeah. Right now it feels empty, "hot air" and in no way "Furious".

[Artunias]

Sorry but I don't see any issue, the fact you used it shows it has a place/purpose, without it the would have been nothing to press except heroic throw or something. 5 times a minute is still more usage than Dragon Roar or Odyn's Fury, are you saying they should be removed too? And another point is that you're using your talent choice of Wrecking Ball to backup your conclusion but the same conclusion won't apply to players who prefer Avatar.
P

Dragon Roar and Odyn's Fury have cooldowns...

He also clearly explains in the latter part of the post why it's not just a problem with wrecking ball but every other ability as well.

[Archimtiros]

Gotta throw my kudos in as well. There's a lot of reasonable meaningful discussion going on in here. And Archimtros in general has, from my POV, provided a lot of thought-provoking, well researched input (I might not agree with everything, but almost all of his posts on warriors have allowed me to look into certain mechanics with a ton more informed scrutiniy).

On this issue I can not fully agree. While there are definitely talent setups (that might even prove optimal) that basically screw you over rotation-wise, I'm not really in lieu of removing furious slash. FS feels (in theory - no beta here) like a good tool to actively control the RNG-ness of Fury and removing it would at least make me feel we've lost something. I'd much rather argue for a solution along the lines of heavily nerfing FS damage putting it on a 3 sec CD and removing it from global cooldown - with frenzy being provided by a GCD ability, possibly raging blow(Of course there'd be lulls of unfilled GCDs in the rotation, but the specc is hectic enough as it is).

To be fair, the recommended solution isn't to remove FS. It's to merge FS and RB into one ability; whether that ability is called and uses the animation of FS or RB is irrelevant.

Regardless, the point of posts like these is to make people think beyond "I don't like this, because I don't like this", or "its the end of the world, x got nerfed", so I'm glad it reaches some people at least.

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Sorry but I don't see any issue, the fact you used it shows it has a place/purpose, without it the would have been nothing to press except heroic throw or something. 5 times a minute is still more usage than Dragon Roar or Odyn's Fury, are you saying they should be removed too? And another point is that you're using your talent choice of Wrecking Ball to backup your conclusion but the same conclusion won't apply to players who prefer Avatar.

Read the whole post. As is made abundantly clear, this issue is not only caused due to Wrecking Ball - Furious Slash goes almost completely unused during Execute and every one of the other proc abilities that Fury has contributes to the issue as well, this was simply an example of one common instance in which it happens.

Likewise, the given solution, merging the two abilities into one, would smooth out the gameplay regardless of whether you took Wrecking Ball or Avatar. Dragon Roar/Odyn's Fury are on longer cooldowns so they're meant to be used irregularly, but having a no-cost/no-cooldown filler that doesn't fill is, in a word, excessive.

[F1reheart]

Archimtiros, we've been reporting this since early alpha around January. I know you were there doing the same thing, 6 months later nothing has changed. I don't know if anything will change by posting it here, but since we're in semi-late beta they are VERY unwilling and scared to make any class mechanic changes close to launch. I think we're going another expansion with an even shittier version of wild strike, so buckle up or reroll like I did. (this is fireheart, btw, not that you may know that name)

Blizzard has said (and mocked) many times about requesting change like this. They "listen" to feedback but don't have to act on it. In other words "we know you think it's shit but we don't care so you're going to deal with it".

[Archimtiros]

Archi, if you want to include Legendarys, you'd also need to track the CC legendary, so you can utilize the Haste proc form it as often as possible. If you let it proc on CD it has some real good haste on it.

I don't include it only because I don't know exactly how it'll work in raids, given that most targets are generally immune to CC. Also worth noting that we only have one form of control loss (Int Shout) on as 1.5m CD, making it pretty impossible to maintain the buff, and therefore not really worth tracking.

[bladeXcrasher]

I don't really like abilities that don't "generate" or "spend" resource and just... I don't know... buff another ability that activates yet another one.

Also, it's terrible that it only has ONE animation. Yeah, every other attack has just one animation, but mashable ones should at least have two alternating animations.

They should mesh Bloodthirst and Furious Slash: generates rage, has an increasing chance of activating Raging Blow, heals (can't occur more than once in 4 or 5 sec) and has at least two animations. Then you can put a talent or something that gives it a cooldown, for the slower paced attack-favoring players.

It's just that Furious Slash feels a bit empty. At least it was a spender before. I'd prefer it as a generator, though.

They could do some cooler stuff with it: instead of generating rage on each hit, each attack stacks a buff on yourself that gives you a bit of rage each second or something (maybe you don't generate rage with autoattacks?), AND stacks a heal on you for a bit (building upon my previous idea of merging it with Bloodthirst). That way, it would feel as if constant combat is what keeps you going.

So yeah. Right now it feels empty, "hot air" and in no way "Furious".

Personally, think the base crit needs to go back into BT. We dont need more buffs to track, and maintence buffs are just boring, did anyone seriously like rampage? I don't remember anyone singing it's praises, just a button to push every 20 to 28 secs.

[Archimtiros]

Archimtiros, we've been reporting this since early alpha around January. I know you were there doing the same thing, 6 months later nothing has changed. I don't know if anything will change by posting it here, but since we're in semi-late beta they are VERY unwilling and scared to make any class mechanic changes close to launch. I think we're going another expansion with an even shittier version of wild strike, so buckle up or reroll like I did. (this is fireheart, btw, not that you may know that name)

It was posted on the main forums as well, as seen in the first post.

I could spend an hour and come up with a reasonably well supported argument for why X or Y should be buffed or nerfed... but what's the point? They're looking at the same thing, and balance is already happening anyway. They need to be reassessing mechanics like this before balancing is finished. Will my post change their mind? Probably not, but that won't stop me from making a case for it. Is it too late to get a chance? I think not quite, but at the very least, I'll be able to say I made the case. Either way, I don't see the point in only making arguments that are easily winnable; that route is for small men.

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Part 3: No Wrecking Ball

Just to dissuade those who think this is a self-contrived situation due to purposefully using Wrecking Ball, I went ahead and ran a 4m fight against a target dummy using Avatar and Bloodbath for maximum buff potential, and here are the results:
(forgive the individual screenshots, logging doesn't pick up dummies)

Bloodthirst	32
Raging Blow	69
Rampage	26
Dragon Roar	9
Odyn's Fury	5
Furious Slash	8
Enrage uptime	69.5% (actually slightly higher, 72-75%)

As you can see, the only time I used Furious Slash was when Bloodthirst failed to Enrage and Rampage was not available, which was not very often. Coincidentally this happened consistently when I chose to replace Raging Blow with Dragon Roar, lowering rage generation as a result. As an added bonus, you'll see that Furious Slash was a whopping 1% of my damage done, partially due to it's low count, and partially due to only being used outside of Enrage.

I was prioritizing Raging Blow over Bloodthirst to avoid overwriting Enrage, though it's possible that using Bloodthirst on cooldown would have led to better results through the use of more Rampage. I also only have 10% Haste with this character, and more Haste could have allowed for 3 GCD's inside Enrage, thereby increasing rage generation and lowering the chance of using Furious Slash as a result.

TLDR: Furious Slash is still incredibly underused and underwhelming within the rotation.

[F1reheart]

It was posted on the main forums as well, as seen in the first post.

I could spend an hour and come up with a reasonably well supported argument for why X or Y should be buffed or nerfed... but what's the point? They're looking at the same thing, and balance is already happening anyway. They need to be reassessing mechanics like this before balancing is finished. Will my post change their mind? Probably not, but that won't stop me from making a case for it. Is it too late to get a chance? I think not quite, but at the very least, I'll be able to say I made the case. Either way, I don't see the point in only making arguments that are easily winnable; that route is for small men.

The main forums is what I was referring to. Also I'm not trying to deter you from making your case, I'm just pointing out the case has been made 6 months ago and we were told no.

I'm still a supporter of https://www.heroicstrike.org/ but how likely do you think we'll get that back? Being told no is frustrating but in the end, its their game and they can make warriors as shitty as they want.

[Tyze]

This spell is making me not want to play Fury and wish that Arms will be good enough.

[Archimtiros]

The main forums is what I was referring to. Also I'm not trying to deter you from making your case, I'm just pointing out the case has been made 6 months ago and we were told no.

I'm still a supporter of https://www.heroicstrike.org/ but how likely do you think we'll get that back? Being told no is frustrating but in the end, its their game and they can make warriors as shitty as they want.

Well technically we did get Heroic Strike back, it was just bastardized and renamed.

For me, how likely something is to happen is irrelevant. I do it to say that I did it. To give an example, realistically, I know that my individual vote during the (U.S. Presidential) elections doesn't matter, but that doesn't dissuade me from exercising my civic right to do so. Without patting myself on the back, I will say that I have a fairly strong track record for effecting positive change within the class, but I understand not all battles will be won (RIP Heroic Strike #GoodnightSweetPrince).

You're right, it is their game, and they can make it how they want. But as long as they're asking for feedback, I'm going to give it to them, and I'm going to do so in the best way I know how - through well reasoned points using supporting evidence.

TLDR: As long as we're in beta, I'll continue giving feedback.

[RedGamer030]

Furious Slash is Wild Strike re-imagined, and it is one of the reasons I am leaving the Warrior class.

[caervek]

As is made abundantly clear, this issue is not only caused due to Wrecking Ball - Furious Slash goes almost completely unused during Execute and every one of the other proc abilities that Fury has contributes to the issue as well, this was simply an example of one common instance in which it happens.

Execute has always knocked less important abilities out of the rotation during execute phase for both Arms and Fury, I don't see any issue here.

Likewise, the given solution, merging the two abilities into one, would smooth out the gameplay regardless of whether you took Wrecking Ball or Avatar.

But this then introduces the issue of Inner Rage then causing gaps in the rotation with no button to press. Why not just remove the CD from Bloodthirst? That would solve the issue too, though I still don't consider it a real issue.

having a no-cost/no-cooldown filler that doesn't fill is, in a word, excessive.

Having a zero cost filler for when there is nothing else to press to ensure no wasted GCDs fits perfectly with the play-style and lore of fury, I still do not see a real issue here.

[Katie45]

The main forums is what I was referring to. Also I'm not trying to deter you from making your case, I'm just pointing out the case has been made 6 months ago and we were told no.

I'm still a supporter of https://www.heroicstrike.org/ but how likely do you think we'll get that back? Being told no is frustrating but in the end, its their game and they can make warriors as shitty as they want.

legion as a whole shows us blizzard listens, just cause they don't listen sometimes doesn't mean we should just lay down and stop feedback, look at arms, they listened alot there, you never know what they can do, or what will do, they could add this next patch next expansion. It's important to give well thought out feedback like this, never if there is a low chance they'll act on it.

[Leyl]

Personally, I'm at the point the more we highlight things, the more they are likely to nerf things into the ground. I don't believe this is constructive, as things are locked in regarding rotation, and if it is locked in, well - its just Sea Lioning at this point. Go Google Sea Lioning if you already don't know that term; you'll see some interesting correlations to this situation. That bag of nerfs is deep, and wide, and they will continue to lay them out the more an unpopular/biased/uninformed/whatever opinion is advocated in their minds I venture.

Or, keep going, b/c fuck it.

[Archimtiros]

Execute has always knocked less important abilities out of the rotation during execute phase for both Arms and Fury, I don't see any issue here.

Then you haven't played Fury. The issue is not that Execute supplants Furious Slash, it's that Furious Slash is still tied to mechanics which are necessary for the spec to properly function.

But this then introduces the issue of Inner Rage then causing gaps in the rotation with no button to press.

Again, read the full post before posting please, this is addressed at the bottom.

Having a zero cost filler for when there is nothing else to press to ensure no wasted GCDs fits perfectly with the play-style and lore of fury, I still do not see a real issue here.

Then again, you haven't played Fury, or you'd be aware of the numerous effects activated by Furious Slash which are lost when the ability is not pressed.

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Personally, I'm at the point the more we highlight things, the more they are likely to nerf things into the ground. I don't believe this is constructive, as things are locked in regarding rotation, and if it is locked in, well - its just Sea Lioning at this point. Go Google Sea Lioning if you already don't know that term; you'll see some interesting correlations to this situation. That bag of nerfs is deep, and wide, and they will continue to lay them out the more an unpopular/biased/uninformed/whatever opinion is advocated in their minds I venture.

Or, keep going, b/c fuck it.

Nothing is locked in, they're still making substantial rotational changes to many classes, including our own. Similar to our last conversation, if you're not interested in the subject, feel free to see yourself out, otherwise stop grandstanding.