Furious Slash is excessive and unnecessary

[Leyl]

At this point, I'd like you to stop grandstanding so Wrecking Ball just gets deleted, lol. No offense, but we're here now after all of this. And like the last conversation, I'll show myself out before you sea lion some more.

[Basilmoyh]

I think it Furious Slash has a place, however, I think Fury feels a bit too synchronous, too cut and clean. Frenzy (talent), imo, doesn't work, instead, if Frenzy were to reduce the GCD of Furious Slash, like WoD Wild Strike is, it would instill a bit a asynchrony into the spec, which would be a nice change of pace, and Furious Slash would feel more fittingly 'Furious'.

[Archimtiros]

At this point, I'd like you to stop grandstanding so Wrecking Ball just gets deleted, lol. No offense, but we're here now after all of this. And like the last conversation, I'll show myself out before you sea lion some more.

• Researching, testing and giving feedback with a conclusive point is not grandstanding.
• Claiming that they'll nerf us into the ground because people are posting feedback that goes against "what they want" is; that would be petty, and they aren't. I'd call it fear mongering, but even that is giving too much credit.
• To be clear, yesterdays nerfs were not made in response to my findings and have had no noticeable impact on the issue at hand.

To follow which, if you bothered to read the thread, you'd know that Wrecking Ball isn't the problem, in fact the problem is even worse when not talented for any special attacks whatsoever.

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I think it Furious Slash has a place, however, I think Fury feels a bit too synchronous, too cut and clean. Frenzy (talent), imo, doesn't work, instead, if Frenzy were to reduce the GCD of Furious Slash, like WoD Wild Strike is, it would instill a bit a asynchrony into the spec, which would be a nice change of pace, and Furious Slash would feel more fittingly 'Furious'.

Interesting idea, though I don't think it would give the effect you're looking for on its own. Take WoD for example: the lower GCD simply fits into the rotation, instead of using one Wild Strike in a GCD you use two; different for sure, but doesn't really upset the rotation in any way. Personally I feel as though Rampage does this - it upsets the standard rotation by adding something out of sync, but it's beneficial enough to be a good thing rather than a bad.

[Recom]

At this point, I'd like you to stop grandstanding so Wrecking Ball just gets deleted, lol. No offense, but we're here now after all of this. And like the last conversation, I'll show myself out before you sea lion some more.

Jesus Christ dude, do you really think doing the ostrich by saying nothing will make Blizz forget about Fury (and forget to tune them)?

I've started playing a week ago on the beta and I fully agree on the matter at hand. Fury still feels good even with FS but IMO it's just bloat for the sake of bloat. It could have a real use if Enrage uptime was a lot lower but then the spec you feel slow AF.

[Leyl]

Jesus Christ dude, do you really think doing the ostrich by saying nothing will make Blizz forget about Fury (and forget to tune them)?

I've started playing a week ago on the beta and I fully agree on the matter at hand. Fury still feels good even with FS but IMO it's just bloat for the sake of bloat. It could have a real use if Enrage uptime was a lot lower but then the spec you feel slow AF.

No, I think the game going live, and ignoring 1% of the population is a solid move. Then harvest data. Then make moves.

[Gowther]

Imo, Whirlwind* and Raging Blow should each generate one stack of Taste for Blood per ability and Furious Slash should generate 2 stacks.

[Archimtiros]

No, I think the game going live, and ignoring 1% of the population is a solid move. Then harvest data. Then make moves.

Which is why I'm glad you don't give feedback. This is the point of a beta, it's not early access.

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Imo, Whirlwind* and Raging Blow should each generate one stack of Taste for Blood per ability and Furious Slash should generate 2 stacks.

Maybe if they lowered the amount to say, 5%, but I feel like that would get out of hand quickly at the current rate. Even with my idea of merging the two abilities, I considered suggesting lowering the gain to 5% or 10% for balancing reasons, but ultimately they can make that decision.

Put simply, if you make it ramp up too quickly, it devalues the associated stat (crit). It may be frustrating that it takes 4 stacks to get a 75%+ chance to crit with BT, but it has to account for power creep later in the expansion when we have 30%+ crit on gear.

[Mefistophelis]

I agree with Archimtiros, but I haven't noticed Sudden Death. It was mentioned in the OP, but I haven't seen it in PTR.

[DesMephisto]

When doing raid testing, I didn't have this problem. I have a ton of haste and was #1/#2 on DPS for most of the encounters.

BT > RB > FS > BT > BC > AVATAR > RAMPAGE > BT > RB > FS > BT > RB > FS > BT > RAMPAGE

Maybe you're right though, I didn't pay too close of attention. That said...yeah FS is shit.

[Artunias]

For single target furious slash isn't as bad in the pre-execute rotation. Though the problems Archi has pointed out still persist, there are just more opportunities to naturally fit in Furious Slash during the 100-20 single target rotation. Especially if you take an Avatar/Inner Rage build.

It becomes REALLY noticeable in execute and AoE rotations, and is quite annoying.

[derpkitteh]

NO. KEEP FURIOUS SLASH.

i HATE the way fury plays on live, always something with a fucking stupid needless cd. furious slash stops that. i want to be always hitting something.

[Artunias]

NO. KEEP FURIOUS SLASH.

i HATE the way fury plays on live, always something with a fucking stupid needless cd. furious slash stops that. i want to be always hitting something.

His suggestions also give you something to always hit...

read the fucking posts people.

[Racthoh]

unfortunately blizzard wants extra buttons in the rotation purely for the sake of having extra buttons now, seems they were pretty upset when the community called them out on every spec being too simple to play. so their solution is this - more buttons whether they make any damn sense or not.

[Nihilist74]

Slam VS WW and FS VS WW are the same scenarios that Frost DKs always had with Icy Touch VS Howling Blast. Even Freezing Fog proc works like Wrecking Ball, the only exception is that a Freezing Fog Howling Blast does not give Runic Power because it is free and it is enabled through obliterate instead of autoattacks. They just removed Icy Touch in Legion from Frost DKs because it was useless when you have Howling Blast with the Same Cost, More Damage, AOE and also spreads diseases.

You can even look at Howling Blast as a Runic Power generator/Rune spender like Whirlwind could be a Enrage Enabler with the Taste for blood stacks if it gave them, as FS does.

We should have WW doing what FS/Slam do and have talents that empower WW on AOE situations in exchange of single target DPS OR have FS/Slam with talents that turn them into AOE options. These would help the button bloat that fury has and would allow the active talents to blend easier in the rotation.

Screw this, then we would be like ret pallies having to change talents in between fights for aoe and single target.

[Murlocbait]

Maybe if they lowered the amount to say, 5%, but I feel like that would get out of hand quickly at the current rate. Even with my idea of merging the two abilities, I considered suggesting lowering the gain to 5% or 10% for balancing reasons, but ultimately they can make that decision.

Put simply, if you make it ramp up too quickly, it devalues the associated stat (crit). It may be frustrating that it takes 4 stacks to get a 75%+ chance to crit with BT, but it has to account for power creep later in the expansion when we have 30%+ crit on gear.

I wonder if it could be helped by simply making it so that every ability you use adds to a buff to BT's crit chance, rather than tying it to specific abilities. Obviously the chance would have to be fairly low per stack, but that way the rotation could exist independently and still function. FS could remain as pure filler, with no more buff thing (other than adding to the buff like every other ability), just what you hit when nothing else is available. Every time you attack, you add to the chance for your next BT to crit, stacking and stacking until it crits and resets the buff. Rinse, repeat as you work through rotation/priority.

Perhaps not as elegant as your proposal, but it wouldn't require getting rid of an ability that Blizz seems to love for some reason, and keeps the Fury "fantasy" of "furious" gameplay with lots of buttons. Dunno, just spitballing.

[Archimtiros]

I agree with Archimtiros, but I haven't noticed Sudden Death. It was mentioned in the OP, but I haven't seen it in PTR.

It's one of the legendary effects.

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I wonder if it could be helped by simply making it so that every ability you use adds to a buff to BT's crit chance, rather than tying it to specific abilities. Obviously the chance would have to be fairly low per stack, but that way the rotation could exist independently and still function. FS could remain as pure filler, with no more buff thing (other than adding to the buff like every other ability), just what you hit when nothing else is available. Every time you attack, you add to the chance for your next BT to crit, stacking and stacking until it crits and resets the buff. Rinse, repeat as you work through rotation/priority.

Perhaps not as elegant as your proposal, but it wouldn't require getting rid of an ability that Blizz seems to love for some reason, and keeps the Fury "fantasy" of "furious" gameplay with lots of buttons. Dunno, just spitballing.

Perhaps, but you still run into the same issue with FS when talenting Frenzy.

Even outside of that, you still have the same problem, why have FS if you're not using it?

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unfortunately blizzard wants extra buttons in the rotation purely for the sake of having extra buttons now, seems they were pretty upset when the community called them out on every spec being too simple to play. so their solution is this - more buttons whether they make any damn sense or not.

Given the state of the other specs, I don't think that's true, and I don't think they intended for FS to be in this place either. I think it happened as a consequence of incremental design. We didn't have the problem before. It became a real problem once Rampage started triggering Enrage, was exacerbated once Inner Rage was changed, and was multiplied with the addition of Wrecking Ball and all of the other procs mentioned in the first post. It's nobodies fault, it just happens.

[Beardyface]

Dream big! Suggest they replace Furious Slash with Heroic Strike! Off the GCD and 20% extra chance on Bloodthirst crit. Stacks twice. Change Frenzy to Heroic Strike increases attack speed by 7.5%. Stacks twice.

Seriously, though, Furious Slash needs to go. Godspeed on this.

[Bigbazz]

If you succeed in removing Furious Stike (Slash?.. fuck it, Strike.. Wild Strike) then fairplay to you, if Blizzard is even opening the feedback thread they can't miss the feedback (which all points the same way on the matter). That said I actually think the 100-20% gameplay is really great as a whole, while Fury has bigger problems than Furious Slash like the survival/damage taken issues due to Enrage, especially brutal after the bug fixes + nerfs surrounding self healing.

Another being Massacre, it makes the final 20% really cool and fun to play, enabling the spec to work in Execute really nicely, but as a talent choice it gimps you for the other 80% of the fight and the spec could be so much better if it was replaced as a talent and made baseline (like Rampage Meatcleaver functionality was). Massacre and spec survival for me are a bigger deal than Furious Slash, I hope this discussion about FS isn't drowning out other issues!

[Accendor]

I know your arguments make sense, but please don't take away buttons to press

[Archimtiros]

I know your arguments make sense, but please don't take away buttons to press

If you read the full post, it compensates for the loss so that there is no loss of downtime.

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If you succeed in removing Furious Stike (Slash?.. fuck it, Strike.. Wild Strike) then fairplay to you, if Blizzard is even opening the feedback thread they can't miss the feedback (which all points the same way on the matter). That said I actually think the 100-20% gameplay is really great as a whole, while Fury has bigger problems than Furious Slash like the survival/damage taken issues due to Enrage, especially brutal after the bug fixes + nerfs surrounding self healing.

Another being Massacre, it makes the final 20% really cool and fun to play, enabling the spec to work in Execute really nicely, but as a talent choice it gimps you for the other 80% of the fight and the spec could be so much better if it was replaced as a talent and made baseline (like Rampage Meatcleaver functionality was). Massacre and spec survival for me are a bigger deal than Furious Slash, I hope this discussion about FS isn't drowning out other issues!

The survival/damage taken issues are largely blown out of proportion by players that don't know what they're talking about. I've tested extensively both in dungeons/raids and leveled multiple times with starter characters, and can say that Fury has no such survivability problems due to Enrage. Likewise, I've had no problems surviving in open world content, in fact I've had an easier time than leveling as a Frost DK. As long as the Fury Warrior isn't trying to pull entire rooms, they shouldn't be having problems, and if that's what you want... too bad, it's no longer their wheelhouse and a lot of specs suffer from that as well, if that's what you want you're going to just have to play Arms. The biggest concern I can raise is that the healing being tied to Bloodthirst causes a delayed reaction due to waiting for the cooldown, but that's hardly gamebreaking.

Regardless, I've campaigned on those issues several times already, and it's incorrect to think that I cannot give feedback to more than one issue at a time. Furthermore, they are very separate issues in that one is based upon the rotation, and the other one is a conceptual issue which is even less likely to change.

Finally, the spec works fine in Execute. The only things that don't work are Enrage and Furious Slash. As I note in the opening post, my suggestion actually addresses this both without needing to make Massacre baseline and without severely devaluing the talent. By merging the two abilities you'd be benefiting from Taste for Blood during the Execute phase, which doesn't happen now because you don't use Furious Slash. This in turn would cause Bloodthirst to trigger Enrage more often, thereby addressing the major issue with the Execute phase. Meanwhile, Massacre remains a useful talent in the Execute phase by allowing for more Enrage (and a strong, free attack), so you have more freedom of talents. Win - Win - Win.