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  1. #81
    I just disagree with you, one look at the logs for Mythic testing and you see the Fury Warriors with a healthy margin on the top of damage taken below the tanks, while no longer having anywhere near the self healing to compensate. Also I've managed to get myself killed out in the world, especially on class quests that seem to scale to ilvl, and I most certainly "do" know what I'm talking about, and I'm not too shabby at playing it either. You have to be actively wary of what you're doing specifically because without cooldowns up the self healing of the class is weak, while the damage taken is very high.

    It's all very well that we have a small burst window of survival with Commanding Shout/Enraged Regen active healing and I've used that to outlast a raid at the end of a wipe on a few pulls in the testing (as seen in the log I earlier posted), but when you don't have that (aka most of the time) you don't have much in the way of any survival and you need extra attention from healers in group content.

    But I've levelled other chars too (that is other classes + Warrior artifact quests on premades and copies), SV hunter comes to mind running around self healing like nobodies business. And as Arms/Prot you're chunk healing with Victory Rush, when it's Fury that is meant to be thematically the self healing spec. A lot of people are complaining about the survival, and a lot of good players too, are you going to fob them all off as "don't know what they are talking about" because your subjective view on how much survival/healing we should have is different?
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2016-06-30 at 07:07 AM.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    I just disagree with you, one look at the logs for Mythic testing and you see the Fury Warriors with a healthy margin on the top of damage taken below the tanks, while no longer having anywhere near the self healing to compensate.
    What you're failing to recognize is that self-healing isn't supposed to compensate for their increased damage taken though, their extra health is. Of course their damage taken is going to be higher. Is it a problem though? Unless you're taking percentage based damage, no, the worst problem is that it makes you a slight healing sponge, which really isn't that big of a problem. Now if Fury Warriors begin to spend an inordinate amount of time at less than maximum health because healers are unable to top them off, then there might be a case.

    This is a fundamentally flawed understanding of how the mechanics interact, and a prime example of why I said that many people don't know what they're talking about. It has nothing to do with being a good or bad player.

    A lot of people are complaining about the survival, and a lot of good players too, are you going to fob them all off as "don't know what they are talking about" because your subjective view on how much survival/healing we should have is different?
    The majority of complaints have been unfounded because they lack hard evidence. If you want to make a case, you need to show numbers and reasoning. Yes, other classes have self-healing, some are better than Fury, but that has little bearing on how good or bad Fury's self-healing is. It's like complaining that Enrage makes Fury Warriors auto-attack faster than Rogues, even though Rogues daggers are supposed to be faster; it doesn't matter and neither has any bearing on the other. There's a big problem, even among the "very good" players, in confusing "this is broken" with "I don't like this" or "X isn't the best", both are failing arguments.

    Regardless, this is getting off topic. If you don't think the thread is important, feel free not to comment on it; if you think something else is more important, feel free to start a thread about it; either way I'd recommend you not disparage on one topic because it's not your subjective view on what is most important.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    There's a big problem, even among the "very good" players, in confusing "this is broken" with "I don't like this" or "X isn't the best", both are failing arguments.
    "I don't like this" is pretty much the basis for this whole thread though, so I don't understand where you're going with this. It's just as much a subjective view on the matter as my observation vs expectations and desires regarding Fury survival/self healing.

    The problem with Furious Strike is that it's unattractive due to tuning, thus it's a low priority filler.. But is it broken to the point of needing to be removed? Only from a subjective point of view, largely from an "I don't like this" point of view even if your angle is to improve the gameplay, there are people who would disagree with your choices (maybe even Blizzard).

    As far as your idea is concerned I'm not against it, but I think it's a lesser issue than the issues I have with the spec.. Lets not kid ourselves, these are all "i don't like this" scenarios.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2016-06-30 at 07:31 AM.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    "I don't like this" is pretty much the basis for this whole thread though, so I don't understand where you're going with this. It's just as much a subjective view on the matter as my observation vs expectations and desires regarding Fury survival/self healing.
    I'm sorry, but that's bullshit.

    I've produced conclusive results, with logs, under a variety of conditions to back up my reasoning. Even you've admitted that it's problematic, so calling this an "I don't like this" thread is petty and categorically wrong. You can call how much the issue matters a subjective one, but the issue itself is very much objective.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Then you haven't played Fury. The issue is not that Execute supplants Furious Slash, it's that Furious Slash is still tied to mechanics which are necessary for the spec to properly function.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Then again, you haven't played Fury, or you'd be aware of the numerous effects activated by Furious Slash which are lost when the ability is not pressed.
    I'm not trying to be rude here, but has it occurred to you that this is by design and you're supposed to lose Taste for Blood during execute? If they changed it so you didn't then they would have to nerf execute damage or something to keep the balance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Again, read the full post before posting please, this is addressed at the bottom.
    No it isn't, you propose to merge FS/RB however from what you've written the result would be inferior to what we currently have on Beta/PTR. Unless I'm reading it wrong you want to make RB zero CD, remove the enrage req and nerf inner rage to the floor, that would be ****.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    "I don't like this" is pretty much the basis for this whole thread though, so I don't understand where you're going with this. It's just as much a subjective view on the matter as my observation vs expectations and desires regarding Fury survival/self healing.

    The problem with Furious Strike is that it's unattractive due to tuning, thus it's a low priority filler.. But is it broken to the point of needing to be removed? Only from a subjective point of view, largely from an "I don't like this" point of view even if your angle is to improve the gameplay, there are people who would disagree with your choices (maybe even Blizzard).
    This pretty much sums it up. The issue is, because his argument is basically "I don't like this" and he doesn't seem to realise it's entirely subjective, he dismisses all the counter arguments of "I do like this" because they're subjective
    Last edited by caervek; 2016-06-30 at 07:38 AM.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    I'm not trying to be rude here, but has it occurred to you that this is by design and you're supposed to lose Taste for Blood during execute? If they changed it so you didn't then they would have to nerf execute damage or something to keep the balance.
    It has occurred to me, however that still introduces the same problem - what is the point of having the button if you don't use it? It also leads to another problem which everyone who has played Fury is well aware of, in that Enrage is almost non-existent during the Execute phase, leading to the impression that Massacre need be talented and/or baseline.

    No it isn't, you propose to merge FS/RB however from what you've written the result would be inferior to what we currently have on Beta/PTR. Unless I'm reading it wrong you want to make RB zero CD, remove the enrage req and nerf inner rage to the floor, that would be ****.
    You said Inner Rage would cause gaps in the rotation, it would not, because under my proposed solution, RB would have no cooldown, therefore there would be no gaps.

    As for Inner Rage, it's really not a nerf. Without Inner Rage rage generation would actually go up due to more frequent Enrages. The proposed Inner Rage would increase that even further to fairly unnecessary levels when using Carnage. The idea is that the two would oppose one another - Inner Rage would render Carnage unnecessary freeing the player to choose other talents (right now it's by far the best talent on that tier, even better than Massacre), and talenting Carnage would render Inner Rage unnecessary, freeing the player to use Frenzy or Bloodbath (neither of which can hope to compete with Inner Rage at the moment).

    It may be hard to follow, but I assure you a lot more testing and thought went into this than simple guesswork.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    This pretty much sums it up.
    It does not sum it up, and is incorrect as well. The tuning on Furious Slash has no bearing - if it were tuned higher, we'd simply use it instead of RB/Procs and then we'd have the opposite problem of never using RB/Procs. Either way, it's still a problem.

    Put in the simplest possible terms - Fury has a finite amount of free GCDs and too many abilities to fit into those GCDs. Which ones fill is fairly irrelevant; no matter what, something is always pushed out.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    I'm sorry, but that's bullshit.

    I've produced conclusive results, with logs, under a variety of conditions to back up my reasoning. Even you've admitted that it's problematic, so calling this an "I don't like this" thread is petty and categorically wrong. You can call how much the issue matters a subjective one, but the issue itself is very much objective.
    No you've produced results to show that from your testing you're not pressing FS very often, so your idea is to remove it? Removing FS is just one solution to the problem (if it is even considered an actual problem) with FS being a weak low priority abilitity.. This is absolutely 100% a subjective view on the subject to suggest removing it because you think it's broken since you don't use it much.

    There are people who like it, I'm not one of them but there are likely going to be plenty of people who will like that FS is simply a button to fill those rare empty spaces. But it's absolutely an "I like this" vs "I don't like this" scenario when your solution to a problem is to remove it entirely and come up with an alternative that you would like better. Just as it's my solution to Execute to want Massacre to be baseline, with the pure intention of replacing it with something else as a talent while maintaining the functionality in the basic setup, I don't like choosing between 100-20% and 20-0% and I believe baseline Massacre would be a good solution.

    This is however you cook it an "I don't like this thread" full of "I don't like this" posts.. And I'm not going to appose you, I partially agree with you, you've done a good job, but lets not paint this as something it's not.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2016-06-30 at 07:44 AM.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    It also leads to another problem which everyone who has played Fury is well aware of, in that Enrage is almost non-existent during the Execute phase
    How is that a problem?

    No seriously, unless Fury's damage is terrible and everyone should be rerolling Arms to raid then that is not an issue, it's balanced, and if they changed it they would have to nerf something else (I.E execute) to keep it balanced.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    You said Inner Rage would cause gaps in the rotation, it would not, because under my proposed solution, RB would have no cooldown, therefore there would be no gaps.
    But RB would suck due to the nerf to Inner Rage, you're basically removing the weaksauce filler by turning one of the hardest hitting attacks (if you take Inner Rage) into a weaksauce filler.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    It may be hard to follow, but I assure you a lot more testing and thought went into this than simple guesswork.
    It's not hard to follow, I'm arguing because you have formed a subjective opinion (I don't like this and would prefer this instead) then acquired data to try and back it up, and I have a different opinion (I like this, I don't want that instead).

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    No you've produced results to show that from your testing you're not pressing FS very often, so your idea is to remove it? Removing FS is just one solution to the problem (if it is even considered an actual problem) with FS being a weak low priority abilitity.. This is absolutely 100% a subjective view on the subject to suggest removing it because you think it's broken since you don't use it much.
    You think that because you don't understand the impact it has on balance. Unfortunately it would take another thread entirely to explain that to you.

    I never said this was the only solution; removing FS is one solution to the problem, another would be removing the bonus crit and putting it back on BT. Another would be removing Enrage entirely. Another would be adding a new ability. There are a million solutions to any problem, but how many of those are feasible, how easy are they to accomplish, and how many leave the spec in the same relative state as before?

    Note that my proposition was only one half of the post, the meat of the post was to identify the problem, which is why it was called a proposition, not a demand; nor did I ever say it "had" to happen. That said, the point of my proposition was that it leaves the spec relatively unchanged. It removes an superfluous button without changing the overall rotation or the way abilities/talents interact. Literally the only change is removing one keybind - all of the functionality remains.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    How is that a problem?

    No seriously, unless Fury's damage is terrible and everyone should be rerolling Arms to raid then that is not an issue, it's balanced, and if they changed it they would have to nerf something else (I.E execute) to keep it balanced.
    Because it sidelines a major mechanic of the spec, and introduces a considerable amount of variance between the lucky and the unlucky (which may sound subjective but is a legitimate balancing concern). It also further devalues certain stats, notably mastery, which is again a balancing concern.

    But RB would suck due to the nerf to Inner Rage, you're basically removing the weaksauce filler by turning one of the hardest hitting attacks (if you take Inner Rage) into a weaksauce filler.
    As an individual hit, yes, but you'd be hitting it more which would make up for the fact. The overall effect would actually be a DPS increase.

    It's not hard to follow, I'm arguing because you have formed a subjective opinion (I don't like this and would prefer this instead) then acquired data to try and back it up, and I have a different opinion (I like this, I don't want that instead).
    I'll never understand why people on the internet insist on misusing the word subjective so much.
    • The post is objective - FS is underutilized and it's corresponding buff fades more often than it is consumed, severely weakening it's viability.
    • My suggestion is objective - This would solve the problem, and here is how it would interact with other abilities to preserve functionality.

    "Like" never entered the equation; I never professed to liking one ability more than another. The only part about that which is subjective is whether or not an individual thinks this issue is important (and even that could be quantified through numbers making it, in fact, objective).

    Also do note that I never said FS had to be removed, I suggested they be merged. It's just as easy to remove RB and keep FS.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    I never said this was the only solution; removing FS is one solution to the problem, another would be removing the bonus crit and putting it back on BT. Another would be removing Enrage entirely. Another would be adding a new ability. There are a million solutions to any problem, but how many of those are feasible, how easy are they to accomplish, and how many leave the spec in the same relative state as before?
    Now that would be an infinitely better solution (ofc it would still require a nerf to execute or something to keep damage balanced).

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Now that would be an infinitely better solution (ofc it would still require a nerf to execute or something to keep damage balanced).
    In some ways I agree, but it has been suggested many times before and fell on deaf ears, so I don't believe it to be a suitable fix. It also fails to retain the functionality of the spec (ie: mechanics change), and has a notable impact on balancing, especially WRT to critical strike capping. Believe it or not, merging RB and FS actually makes balancing easier by removing one variable from the equation.

    The major downside is that it only addresses the problem with Taste for Blood, it does nothing for the fact that Furious Slash is still under ultilized (or another ability would be under utilized if Furious Slash were buffed considerably). This may not sound like a big deal, but it causes a balancing disparity between talents (#1 reason Frenzy is so terrible right now, despite Haste being a great stat) and once things like set bonuses enter the mix, it can become a very big deal very quickly.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    You think that because you don't understand the impact it has on balance. Unfortunately it would take another thread entirely to explain that to you.

    I never said this was the only solution; removing FS is one solution to the problem, another would be removing the bonus crit and putting it back on BT. Another would be removing Enrage entirely. Another would be adding a new ability. There are a million solutions to any problem, but how many of those are feasible, how easy are they to accomplish, and how many leave the spec in the same relative state as before?

    Note that my proposition was only one half of the post, the meat of the post was to identify the problem, which is why it was called a proposition, not a demand; nor did I ever say it "had" to happen. That said, the point of my proposition was that it leaves the spec relatively unchanged. It removes an superfluous button without changing the overall rotation or the way abilities/talents interact. Literally the only change is removing one keybind - all of the functionality remains.
    You underestimate your fellow posters, I understand very well how things affect balance I just don't feel the weight of these issues so heavily. You should realise that the people you're posting to are not children or new players to wow, you're throwing in digs because you feel you're so above a player that you need a whole thread to explain why your idea for a game change is not subjective?

    I think you need to come back down to earth a bit, these issues at the end of the day are not as big as you have painted them and if the spec went live tomorrow we would not all be sitting there crying to blizzard about our taste for blood stacks falling off.. These are relatively minor issues.. I understand that you've tried to cover all grounds in fixing these little problems with your idea, but it's still absolutely an "I don' like this" situation, don't try to make it larger than it is, you're speaking english and basic mathematics within game mechanics, not rocket science.

    I'll give you an example, I turned up in the Beta last weekend (not touched it since alpha until char copy), on the Mythic test I examined the talents and numbers quickly and then I examined the timings on the fight, choose my talents accordingly. You used Wrecking Ball and your FS usage was low, I used Avatar and my FS was quite high. But my log has both myself and our other warrior (followed my talents) doing considerably higher dps over the pulls than you had managed with your selection, I averaged 120k dps higher than your same log.

    I understand how theorycrafting works, I understand how to maximise a situation in WoW. So don't sit there and try to use a "oh you just wouldn't understand, I'd need a thread to explain it to you" as a defence to me simply calling this thread what it is. There is no shame in this thread being an "I don't like this" thread but don't try to defend it as something else by trying to put yourself on a pedestal above others.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    You underestimate your fellow posters, I understand very well how things affect balance I just don't feel the weight of these issues so heavily. You should realise that the people you're posting to are not children or new players to wow, you're throwing in digs because you feel you're so above a player that you need a whole thread to explain why your idea for a game change is not subjective?

    I think you need to come back down to earth a bit, these issues at the end of the day are not as big as you have painted them and if the spec went live tomorrow we would not all be sitting there crying to blizzard about our taste for blood stacks falling off.. These are relatively minor issues.. I understand that you've tried to cover all grounds in fixing these little problems with your idea, but it's still absolutely an "I don' like this" situation, don't try to make it larger than it is, you're speaking english and basic mathematics within game mechanics, not rocket science.
    Ok then, show me, in english and basic mathematics, otherwise your points are unfounded.

    I'll give you an example, I turned up in the Beta last weekend (not touched it since alpha until char copy), on the Mythic test I examined the talents and numbers quickly and then I examined the timings on the fight, choose my talents accordingly. You used Wrecking Ball and your FS usage was low, I used Avatar and my FS was quite high. But my log has both myself and our other warrior (followed my talents) doing considerably higher dps over the pulls than you had managed with your selection, I averaged 120k dps higher than your same log.
    You realize a lot more goes into performance during testing such as that than just your rotation right? Nevermind the fact that they were all wipes. Don't confuse output with mechanics mr theorycrafter. You also ignored the major point in that [I]no matter which ability you use, another is pushed out of the rotation.[/u]

    I understand how theorycrafting works, I understand how to maximise a situation in WoW. So don't sit there and try to use a "oh you just wouldn't understand, I'd need a thread to explain it to you" as a defence to me simply calling this thread what it is. There is no shame in this thread being an "I don't like this" thread but don't try to defend it as something else by trying to put yourself on a pedestal above others.
    If I ever said I didn't like the ability or it's function, it might be. I did not. I like the ability and it's function; I don't like not using it because it doesn't fit into the rotation.

    I'm done talking about this. If you can find a point that addresses the issue without trying to assess what I or anyone else "should think" about it, feel free to come back.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    How is that a problem?

    No seriously, unless Fury's damage is terrible and everyone should be rerolling Arms to raid then that is not an issue, it's balanced, and if they changed it they would have to nerf something else (I.E execute) to keep it balanced.
    prime example of the problem we have on this forum so often: people only look at one PART of a problem but not on the whole picture...

    not having enrage during execute phase is a HUGE deal for two major reasons:
    - enrage is THE core-mechanic of the spec and helps you generate most of your rage, so not having it when you want to spam a spender (execute) cripples the idea of an execute-phase
    - mastery going towards being worthless depending on (unbuffed) BT crit-luck.

    currently we basically lose one of our artifact-traits (odyn's champion's cooldown-reduction) AND enrage (for the most part) during execute unless we spec massacre (which currently isnt worth taking over carnage in most cases)

    this isnt just about FS but about basically the WHOLE warrior, but you need to take the time and think about it and not just jump the first piece of the equation and make arguments that ignore the rest of the spec.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Ok then, show me, in english and basic mathematics, otherwise your points are unfounded.



    You realize a lot more goes into performance during testing such as that than just your rotation right? Nevermind the fact that they were all wipes. Don't confuse output with mechanics mr theorycrafter.



    If I ever said I didn't like the ability or it's function, it might be. I did not. I like the ability and it's function; I don't like not using it because it doesn't fit into the rotation.

    I'm done talking about this. If you can find a point that addresses the issue without trying to assess what I or anyone else "should think" about it, feel free to come back.
    You're done talking because you're unable to accept the point of view without reverting to your "well you just don't understand" defense. You can use any defense you want, maybe you were purposely playing poorly or trying to do low damage during the tests, for the sake of testing? It's not nice when someone else tries to put you down by using "i'm superior" as their argument, just as it was low of me to use that log comparison.

    But that's what you're doing, it's low and it's childish. The fact that I did high dps is not a coincidence, I'm good at the game and I've always been good at the game, I was testing stuff on the raid test too, different strategies, positionings, ideas.. That's what you do, I wasn't there to compete for the dps olympics.. But in looking at the logs I used FS a lot more than you're suggesting, and not only was my dps not bad but it was lightyears ahead of whatever gameplay/spec you were running. That still doesn't actually make me right at all in the slightest, and infact on theorycrafting matters I'm sure you went in with a more solid grounding than me, and you've put in the effort to do so.

    But understand that hey most of us do perfectly understand the balance, the numbers, the interactions when they are put infront of us on a piece of paper.. We don't need to be talked down to like children, and you can't use that as an angle when defending whether or not your views on Furious Strike are subjective or not, regardless of whether the problems are real the weight of those problems is always subjective from a gameplay perspective.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2016-06-30 at 08:55 AM.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  16. #96
    [QUOTE=Bigbazz;41144704]You're done talking because you're unable to accept the point of view without reverting to your "well you just don't understand" defense. You can use any defense you want, maybe you were purposely playing poorly or trying to do low damage during the tests, for the sake of testing? It's not nice when someone else tries to put you down by using "i'm superior" as their argument, just as it was low of me to use that log comparison.[quote]

    I'm done talking because it's 2am in the states and there are other responsibilities. Furthermore, I've clearly explained my points and reasonings, yet you insist on coming back to the same false argument. Your argument has evolved so many times I can't even keep track, and most recently you insist on using DPS on wipes of all things as a measurement of mechanical interaction, which has no bearing whatsoever on the argument presented, not to mention that there are more factors to DPS than just your personal rotation, as was brought up above. You asserted this was all "basic math", so you should know that total DPS is a combination of ability use, length of time, raid composition, and various other factors - none of which are the subject of this thread. You're here to argue because you want to argue, and it's not the first time you've done it with me, using inane arguments without factual basis to try to make yourself sound superior. You also keep misusing the word subjective, but that's a norm around here.

    Feel free to believe whatever you want, my credentials are readily available, but it's past time for bed. Goodnight.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post

    I'm done talking because it's 2am in the states and there are other responsibilities. Furthermore, I've clearly explained my points and reasonings, yet you insist on coming back to the same false argument. Your argument has evolved so many times I can't even keep track, and most recently you insist on using DPS on wipes of all things as a measurement of mechanical interaction, which has no bearing whatsoever on the argument presented, not to mention that there are more factors to DPS than just your personal rotation, as was brought up above. You asserted this was all "basic math", so you should know that total DPS is a combination of ability use, length of time, raid composition, and various other factors - none of which are the subject of this thread. You're here to argue because you want to argue, and it's not the first time you've done it with me, using inane arguments without factual basis to try to make yourself sound superior. You also keep misusing the word subjective, but that's a norm around here.

    Feel free to believe whatever you want, my credentials are readily available, but it's past time for bed. Goodnight.
    You started the argument because you felt your opinion on Warrior issues was more important than my own when you shoved it down my throat that it was not a problem, that we just didn't know what we were talking about.

    Then you enforced your position by trying to make yourself superior, you pretty much just qualified yourself by claiming others are below you (classy). So I did the same and brought up the log. It was childish but no more so than what you did. Either way you used logs to support your claim. You'd have been better to show paper math of the situation than to use logs that are prone to human error/bias, since my own logs countered what you were saying about the low frequency, and the numbers were very strong with that gameplay setup.

    Ultimately this comes down to you truly believing that your solutions are objective, even though they are based on your subjective view on the weight of the problems. For all you know it could be Blizzards intention to have FS as a low frequency use filler, and it could be a design choice that is preferred by some.. Because of that your view on the situation is subjective, it could be intentionally designed this way and you simply don't like it.

    It's subjective, it's your opinion. Your solutions to the problems are real, but the way you view the ability as a problem, the frequency of use as a problem is subjective, because others may not view it the same way. As I've said I think Fury from 100-20% is awesome, even if at the same time I don't oppose your idea, because I don't see the problems from 100-20% as such a big deal as you do, because they aren't a big deal.

    And yes, my point of view is subjective (your new favourite word!)

    adjective: subjective

    existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective ).

    based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
    "his views are highly subjective"
    synonyms: personal, personalized, individual, internal, emotional, instinctive, intuitive, impressionistic; biased, prejudiced, bigoted, idiosyncratic, irrational;
    informalgut, gut reaction
    "standards can be judged on quantitative data rather than on subjective opinion"
    It means what I think it means, it means what other people in the the thread think it means. I don't know what you thought it means if this is not adding up. Courtesy of google and the dictionary.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2016-06-30 at 09:42 AM.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    You started the argument because you felt your opinion on Warrior issues was more important than my own when you shoved it down my throat that it was not a problem, that we just didn't know what we were talking about.
    You know, actually I'd say you started the argument by saying this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    while Fury has bigger problems than Furious Slash like the survival/damage taken issues due to Enrage, especially brutal after the bug fixes + nerfs surrounding self healing.
    So in fact you were the one who felt your opinion was more important than the topic of this thread, shown by coming into said thread and saying that it wasn't a concern and that your subject should take priority.

    I then clarified the fact that no, Fury actually functions fine, and the fact that other classes heal more doesn't mean that Fury doesn't heal enough. Nobody ever said Fury was supposed to have the top self healing.

    You then showed your lack of understanding of mechanics with this statement:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    I just disagree with you, one look at the logs for Mythic testing and you see the Fury Warriors with a healthy margin on the top of damage taken below the tanks, while no longer having anywhere near the self healing to compensate.
    Which I corrected, and you pointedly ignored in your following reply.

    Finally, you jumped on the "I don't like this"/"subjective" train as evidenced here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    "I don't like this" is pretty much the basis for this whole thread though, so I don't understand where you're going with this. It's just as much a subjective view on the matter as my observation vs expectations and desires regarding Fury survival/self healing.
    And have been defending it ever since, despite my explanation to the contrary, going so far as to try to abase me with your "superior logs", despite the incredibly poor reasoning in doing so and lack of anything to do with the topic. You've also repeatedly tried to attack my character using a comment that was wildly taken out of context, taking a generalized statement as some sort of personalized attack. That's a fundamental fallacy.

    This isn't anything new either. You've done this to me in at least three threads within recent memory, all with similarly poor reasoning and argumentative skills. I've been trying to stay civil here, but point in fact: you don't know what the hell you're talking about and your grasp on mechanics is as poor as your reasoning. You're being petulant and arguing for the sake of argument, and lucky you, you've finally gained the honor of being my third person ever on ignore, joining the well respected Firebert and RyanEbonwhatever. Despite my tone, this is disappointing, because those times you're not so unwavering in trying to prove you're right and the other person is wrong, you do actually tend to make well crafted posts.

    And before you say I'm cutting off engagement with you because I "don't have an argument", as you did earlier and which I'd like to point out you've also done every time I've tried to halt a conversation with you, it's not. It's because you're acting incessant, childish, and you've clearly shown that you have no interest in what I have to say. There's no point in debating with someone who doesn't want to hear the other side (I'm just waiting for you to try to reverse that comment against me), and nothing I say will have impact on a made up mind, so there's no point in me bothering to continue. Congratulations on keeping me up even later, I now bid you adieu, hopefully forever.

  19. #99
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    It's subjective, it's your opinion. Your solutions to the problems are real, but the way you view the ability as a problem, the frequency of use as a problem is subjective, because others may not view it the same way.
    Indeed, IMO Fury on Beta/PTR is the best it's been since at least WotLK and the OP's changes would hurt that (Inner Rage is awesome). Of course that's just my opinion based on what I like, but that's all this thread is, opinions based on what people like.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    There's no point in debating with someone who doesn't want to hear the other side
    The hypocrisy of this statement and your post is unbelievable, just go to bed like you said you were going to. All you have is personal insults based on nothing, you claim I don't understand the mechanics and yet you know full well that it's full of shite.

    Your idea of me not understanding mechanics is based on you not sharing my opinion (aka I want more self healing, as prior to nerf = I don't understand mechanics.. Brilliant mate, would subscribe). You're truly ridiculous.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2016-06-30 at 10:06 AM.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

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