Thoughts on Tanking and Blood going into Legion (LONG)

[Philondra]

Do you think Umbilicus Eternus is a good choice over Unending Thirst for raiding as well? I can imagine that if you do mythic+ dungeons Blood Plague does a lot of damage in AoE situations, but for single target bosses it is probably lackluster. What are your experiences?

I'm not in the beta, but I did do a bit of analysis on Kanj's logs a few pages back, and Umbilicus Eternus was doing anywhere from 6-14% of his total healing, depending on on the encounter. This trait is much, much better than our initial thoughts were. I think going down the middle of the tree (right side), grabbing Unending Thirst, then heading left along the bottom until we get to Umbilicus Eternus is probably the strongest play.

We'll end up with something like this:

http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-c...ER0BEeARIQFTMB

At which point we then take Blood Feast and then it becomes a bit less clear.

Going down the middle-left would get us to both Unending Thirst and Umbilicus Eternus with three fewer traits, but most of us will take the Red Thirst talent, making Vampiric Fangs on the right side incredibly strong. It's probably worth the short-term tradeoff of needing more artifact power.

By the way, Kanj, if you'll be doing any more raid testing I'd love to take a look at your logs again.


EDIT: Bone Shield generation is also stronger on the right side than the left side.
Dance of Darkness/Mouth of Hell mean that Dancing Rune Weapon lasts 14 seconds on a 3 minute cooldown. Using 3 Marrowrends in that timeframe would generate 12 Bone Shield charges (which is the realistic maximum), or an extra 3 every 3 minutes.
Rattling Bones gives us a 30% chance for an extra Bone Shield charge, so in order to generate 3 extra Bone Shield charges we would need to use an average of 10 Marrowrends. Do we use at least 10 Marrowrends every 3 minutes? Of course we do!

[Deleted]

I'm not in the beta, but I did do a bit of analysis on Kanj's logs a few pages back, and Umbilicus Eternus was doing anywhere from 6-14% of his total healing, depending on on the encounter. This trait is much, much better than our initial thoughts were. I think going down the middle of the tree (right side), grabbing Unending Thirst, then heading left along the bottom until we get to Umbilicus Eternus is probably the strongest play.

We'll end up with something like this:

http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-c...ER0BEeARIQFTMB

At which point we then take Blood Feast and then it becomes a bit less clear.

Going down the middle-left would get us to both Unending Thirst and Umbilicus Eternus with three fewer traits, but most of us will take the Red Thirst talent, making Vampiric Fangs on the right side incredibly strong. It's probably worth the short-term tradeoff of needing more artifact power.

By the way, Kanj, if you'll be doing any more raid testing I'd love to take a look at your logs again.

I've been in just about all the raid test so far. Alpha included. Think I might've missed one. Also shared logs every time. But sure will

[Philondra]

I do agree that some of the talents are still pretty terrible, Soulgorge and Tombstone in particular, but overall I am very pleased with the spec and feel it is a massive upgrade from WoD Blood.

Tombstone would be better with a small revamp and numbers change while keeping the theme the same:

"Consume up to five Bone Shield charges. For each charge consumed, you gain X Runic Power and absorb damage equal to Y% of your maximum health for 8 seconds. 30 second cooldown."

X and Y are subject to tuning, but I think halving the cooldown and halving the number of charges consumed would be a much needed usability buff. The major problem with Tombstone that cannot be fixed with number tuning is that it leaves you without any Bone Shield charges *and* invokes the GCD, so you get stuck without any Bone Shield charges and are left helpless for 1.5 seconds. If you take damage before you're able to Marrowrend again, then congratulations--you've essentially accomplished nothing with your one minute cooldown. Consuming up to five Bone Shield charges would mean that if you use it with 6+ you'll always be left with at least one, so you won't be caught with your pants down.

The talent will always be a DPS loss, but I think that's acceptable if it becomes a stronger cooldown.


I don't think there's anything that can be done about Soulgorge.

[Deleted]

I have a few questions for those on the beta:

On the PTR, MR seems to generate double the bone shield charges it's supposed to during DRW. Is this intended? How does this work with Mouth of Hell?

Unending Thirst seems ridiculously strong when not taking melee damage (I heard it makes blood super broken in PvP against casters). Has anyone been able to test that on Star Augur Etraeus (or other encounters without melee damage)? What about off-tanking? Do you think this will be enough of a problem for them to change how this trait works?

Lastly, how big of a problem is Wraith Walks 1min cd really (or not being able to attack during it, while we're at it)?

[Mursy]

Would you guys recommend this class to a first time tank? I'm really looking in to tanking seriously for the first time in Legion and i'm liking how this spec is looking so far.

[Philondra]

Would you guys recommend this class to a first time tank? I'm really looking in to tanking seriously for the first time in Legion and i'm liking how this spec is looking so far.

Pre-Legion, I would never have recommended Blood to a beginner, but Legion brought with it a lot of changes that makes Blood more approachable for first-timers.

Boiled down to its most simple--and I'm oversimplifying this a fair deal--Blood tanking in Legion revolves around spending runes on Marrowrend to maintain Bone Shield/generate Runic power, and spending runic power on Death Strike to heal.

At a less introductory level, you want to make sure to keep Blood Boil charges rolling, spend free runes on Heart Strike when Bone Shield charges aren't in danger of running out, react to Crimson Scourge procs to get free Death and Decays, and learn how to optimize your Death Strike healing.

On the positive side, Blood also has a bit more utility than the other tanks in the form of Death Grip and Gorefiend's Grasp to reposition mobs　(Gorefiend's Grasp in particular is great for gathering multiple adds), a situational CC baseline in the form of Control Undead, and a battle res. Blood also boasts exceptional self healing and a cooldown that deals specifically with magic damage, which comprises the majority of tank busters.

On the negative side, Blood has by far the least mobility out of the tank classes, so you need to be on the ball when it comes to boss abilities that require you to move.

Something else that may be a negative or positive, depending on your preferred playstyle, is that most of Blood's strongest talents are passive rather than active. On the one hand, this makes Blood more user-friendly; on the other, it means that it's harder to express mastery through advanced ability usage.

[Deleted]

@Philondra

If you like to dive into logs here you go.

Some Violet Hold Mythic runs.
One Heroic Halls of Valor run - World quest thing.
One Darkheat Thicket Mythic+ 4 with Bolstering(Prolly the worst of them all)

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports.../#type=summary

[Milocow]

@Philondra

If you like to dive into logs here you go.

Some Violet Hold Mythic runs.
One Heroic Halls of Valor run - World quest thing.
One Darkheat Thicket Mythic+ 4 with Bolstering(Prolly the worst of them all)

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports.../#type=summary

Do you have unending thirst or bloodfeast?
Cant find any leech or bloodfeast in logs
Also were you running Ossuary?

[enq]

On the PTR, MR seems to generate double the bone shield charges it's supposed to during DRW. Is this intended? How does this work with Mouth of Hell?

Seems intended yes. With MoH it gives 8 charges.

[Zorish]

On the positive side, Blood also has a bit more utility than the other tanks in the form of Death Grip and Gorefiend's Grasp to reposition mobs　(Gorefiend's Grasp in particular is a unique ability that no other spec has), a situational CC baseline in the form of Control Undead, and a battle res. Blood also boasts exceptional self healing and a cooldown that deals specifically with magic damage, which comprises the majority of tank busters.

i am sad to ruin your imagination but about GG http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=202138/sigil-of-chains and control undead... am i wrong or they done something with it?

[Deleted]

Do you have unending thirst or bloodfeast?
Cant find any leech or bloodfeast in logs
Also were you running Ossuary?

Ran this
Had these artifact traits

[threeks]

Pre-Legion, I would never have recommended Blood to a beginner, but Legion brought with it a lot of changes that makes Blood more approachable for first-timers.

Boiled down to its most simple--and I'm oversimplifying this a fair deal--Blood tanking in Legion revolves around spending runes on Marrowrend to maintain Bone Shield/generate Runic power, and spending runic power on Death Strike to heal.

At a less introductory level, you want to make sure to keep Blood Boil charges rolling, spend free runes on Heart Strike when Bone Shield charges aren't in danger of running out, react to Crimson Scourge procs to get free Death and Decays, and learn how to optimize your Death Strike healing.

On the positive side, Blood also has a bit more utility than the other tanks in the form of Death Grip and Gorefiend's Grasp to reposition mobs　(Gorefiend's Grasp in particular is a unique ability that no other spec has), a situational CC baseline in the form of Control Undead, and a battle res. Blood also boasts exceptional self healing and a cooldown that deals specifically with magic damage, which comprises the majority of tank busters.

On the negative side, Blood has by far the last mobility out of the tank classes, so you need to be on the ball when it comes to boss abilities that require you to move.

Something else that may be a negative or positive, depending on your preferred playstyle, is that most of Blood's strongest talents are passive rather than active. On the one hand, this makes Blood more user-friendly; on the other, it means that it's harder to express mastery through advanced ability usage.

Great post, but DH now has mass grip as well.

[Philondra]

i am sad to ruin your imagination but about GG http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=202138/sigil-of-chains and control undead... am i wrong or they done something with it?

Curses! I forgot about Demon Hunters. Thanks for the correction.

- - - Updated - - -

@Philondra

If you like to dive into logs here you go.

Some Violet Hold Mythic runs.
One Heroic Halls of Valor run - World quest thing.
One Darkheat Thicket Mythic+ 4 with Bolstering(Prolly the worst of them all)

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports.../#type=summary

Thanks for the logs, Kanj. I mostly took a look at the Mythic +4, because that's what personally interests me the most. Some things that stood out to me:

* Umbilicus Eternus was definitely pulling its weight, just as it had been during raid testing. Once again, we're looking at between 6 at 16% of healing being the Umbilicus Eternus absorb.
* Blood Shield surprised me by topping your healing--even above Bone Shield--on two of the four boss fights. Mastery looks like it might be a strong stat for someone like me, who is planning on focusing on Mythic+. On those two fights it had an uptime of more than 50%, making Unending Thirst at the bottom of our artifact tree a very attractive trait.
* Warcraft Logs doesn't play nicely with Spectral Deflection yet. In the "buffs" section it didn't look like it was all that useful, but looking in the "healing" section we can see that it was triggered multiple times.

[Milocow]

Yea I think the best artifact route is
this
After that branch out to Blood feast then the armour boost then veinrender and finally umbilicus eternus. 2x DS and then Blood boil gives you huge healing due to leech
Anyone know how to get Touch of Undeath skin?

[Philondra]

Yea I think the best artifact route is
this
After that branch out to Blood feast then the armour boost then veinrender and finally umbilicus eternus. 2x DS and then Blood boil gives you huge healing due to leech

Yeah, that's basically the route I gave above, although I would save Blood Feast until after Umbilicus Eternus.

[Evolved]

Great post, but DH now has mass grip as well.

To be fair, it's a piddly 8 yard radius. It's nowhere near as good as GG per use.

[Deleted]

Yea I think the best artifact route is
this
After that branch out to Blood feast then the armour boost then veinrender and finally umbilicus eternus. 2x DS and then Blood boil gives you huge healing due to leech
Anyone know how to get Touch of Undeath skin?

Blood Feast heals are so tiny. Also in dungeons with big pulls.

[Deleted]

I think the Mastery > Crit thing is an unpopular idea among the majority of Blood DK's on Beta. Crit also increase dmg.

How much crit can we stack however?
I mean, while progressing through mythic+ and hc what kind of crit rating can we achieve? Is it worth?

I can see crit getting better as the ilvl raises, but at the beginning of the expansion?

Blood Feast heals are so tiny. Also in dungeons with big pulls.

Yeah, that's basically the route I gave above, although I would save Blood Feast until after Umbilicus Eternus.

I agree, it's probably better to get at least Veinrender before going for Blood Feast.

[Deleted]

How much crit can we stack however?
I mean, while progressing through mythic+ and hc what kind of crit rating can we achieve? Is it worth?

I can see crit getting better as the ilvl raises, but at the beginning of the expansion?



I agree, it's probably better to get at least Veinrender before going for Blood Feast.

Mastery maybe seem like a good defensive stat but the blood shields are really so tiny, while Crit benefits loads of different Major Artifact traits, on top of giving Parry and dmg.

I wouldn't take Blood Feast until it's the last option. The heals it does really doesn't do a difference.

[Milocow]

I don't know why critical is so valued. Yes it gives parry but you require so much critical rating (515) to get 1% parry and that's ignoring the DR. yes there's skeletal shattering but face it it's pathetic. You need 12.5% critical to get 1% Damage reduction from SS
Mastery (349 for 2% more shield) blood shields aren't that small according to your logs. Furthermore while BS is up you get 50% leech. 50% leech that's a lot. Critical is also unreliable whereas mastery is always there for you.
On another topic all the tank trinkets seem underwhelming. Night hold trinkets all have critical except the Guldan one which has mastery. Their absorb amount is like 600-700k which isn't that much for a 2min CD. I think the best trinkets would be xavius trinket (damage reduction on hit, stacks but doesn't refresh duration) and versatility trinket (flat vers + vers proc)