BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Tinch]

But what about "taking back control" since you are just describing an EEA agreement?

I don't really like that phrase, but 'taking back control' to me is removing the supremacy of EU law, having control of how many people enter the country, and having the freedom to create trade deals with the rest of the world. Essentially just being able to govern ourselves however we see fit.

[Deleted]

No, the UK must get a worse deal. All those things you think are destroying your country and which I think is good for Europe are parts of packages. You can't just choose the perts you like, while also not paying anything and also writing our laws for us just for shits and giggles.

Exactly. At best the UK will go from being a EU member with special privileges to being a member outside of EU without priviliges.

The UK already had better conditions a normal EU membership. And as EVERYONE in EU says: EU memvership needs to have an advantage over not being a EU member.

That isnt punishment. That is absokutely logical and necessary because otherwise every member would try to get their own special conditions.

That is why some EU members are happy the UK leaves. Because they think that they will have it easier without UK to get EU members even closer. The UK vetoed a lot of them. And by the UK getting worse conditions than before they are showing that populsts are wrng saying they will get better treaties by leaving EU.

[Triks]

I don't really like that phrase, but 'taking back control' to me is removing the supremacy of EU law, having control of how many people enter the country, and having the freedom to create trade deals with the rest of the world. Essentially just being able to govern ourselves however we see fit.

Read Klatar's post above me.

[Deleted]

I don't really like that phrase, but 'taking back control' to me is removing the supremacy of EU law, having control of how many people enter the country, and having the freedom to create trade deals with the rest of the world. Essentially just being able to govern ourselves however we see fit.

But by moving from full EU membership to EEA, you're not removing supremacy of EU law, you're stregthening it.

[Tinch]

The freedom of movement of labour, goods, and capital are considered a single subject; not something that can be broken up and cherry picked. This is what Leavers fail to understand. You either move all or none at all.

The EU has a number of FTA's which do not include the free movement of people.

[Deleted]

The EU has a number of FTA's which do not include the free movement of people.

All of which are worse deals than it has with member states.

[Dsc]

@ati87. I'm not quoting half a page.
1) I'm not reading a wiki, it can be and is edited by anyone.
I'm instead looking at white papers that come from the EU itself.

You give up your citizenship to the EU
Your military WILL be under a central EU ( unelected, unaccountable, unremarkable,) control.
EU law has 100% supremecy over nation law.

Your representatives vote on 187+ pieces of legislature per hour in cases.
Under QMV Brits have no veto option

The EU commissioners and the 10's of thousands of employees have immunity from prosecution.

The EU can withdraw funding for parties it doesn't like, under Article 52.

Human rights are atrocious.
Under Article 52
"The EU may limit all rights and freedoms enumerated in charter where nessisary to meet the general interest and objectives of the EU.

Your "ideas" for laws come from the ERT the European round table of industrialists. That's right, multi national corporations..

As an American who's grandfathers and great grandfather fought in WWI and WWII, in Europe...
I'm glad the Brits woke up. You should too.

[Deleted]

Boris never actually wanted to leave the EU. He wanted to team up with the leavers to be on the popular side of the argument, he didn't want to actually win the argument.

He knows what a disaster leaving the EU will bring and how the next PM will take full responsibility for that disaster. That's why he's no longer going to put his name forward because he doesn't want to face the consequences of his actions. And that's also why he's a spineless coward.

Thats true. The referendum was done for the wrong reasons. It was about political games and collecting voters from the right wing. This bitterly failed because those voters will feel like are ignored or lied to, depending on remain or leave.

What already came up several times in germany: the UK just wanted to play games and get even more privileges. They overplayed that card simply.

Europe is fed up about their special snowflake that always got their extra chocolate and always wanted more and more and more.

[Tinch]

Read Klatar's post above me.

If the EU doesn't agree to those conditions thats fine, I'm just setting out my own reasons, and pointing out that the EU will actually be harming themselves in the process.

[Jessicka]

The EU has a number of FTA's which do not include the free movement of people.

Such as? Iceland, Norway, and Switzerland are all a part of Schengen - something the UK as a member of the EU was able to opt out of. It's entirely possible we wouldn't even be able to keep that condition. Others are very limited in what they can actually ship, we don't have niche enough markets to really benefit from that.

Either way, we're worse off.

[Deleted]

If the EU doesn't agree to those conditions thats fine, I'm just setting out my own reasons, and pointing out that the EU will actually be harming themselves in the process.

Sure they might lose some money with the UK. That harm is nothing compared to the precedent that a non-member state can cherry pick whatever the hell it wants while full members have to follow the rules.

[Tinch]

All of which are worse deals than it has with member states.

Perhaps, I wouldn't pretend to know the exact terms of every FTA the EU has with other countries. Like I said for me it is not just about the economic reasons, I am opposed to greater political union within the EU.

If that means a trade off to where the economic benefits are not as favourable, so be it.

[Deleted]

So when Boris joins the leave campaign he is an opportunist who is only doing it to become PM. When the campaign is over and he states he is not running for PM, he is now a spineless coward?

I am no fan of the guy but how could he win? Just reinforces some of the remain rhetoric that anyone who dares to disagree with them is automatically dishonest and has bad intentions.

Because if the remain side would have won, he would have stood for leadership.

[Deleted]

Perhaps, I wouldn't pretend to know the exact terms of every FTA the EU has with other countries. Like I said for me it is not just about the economic reasons, I am opposed to greater political union within the EU.

If that means a trade off to where the economic benefits are not as favourable, so be it.

Well if you feel that way. At least you won't pretend than that the UK is the best and Europe will die without it. Finally that little island can become a third world country.

[Kontinuum]

Brave Sir Boris ran away.
Bravely ran away, away!
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Boris turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Sir Boris!

[Triks]

If the EU doesn't agree to those conditions thats fine, I'm just setting out my own reasons, and pointing out that the EU will actually be harming themselves in the process.

If the EU gives you what you want what will be the point of the EU in the first place?

[Tinch]

Such as? Iceland, Norway, and Switzerland are all a part of Schengen - something the UK as a member of the EU was able to opt out of. It's entirely possible we wouldn't even be able to keep that condition. Others are very limited in what they can actually ship, we don't have niche enough markets to really benefit from that.

Either way, we're worse off.

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/cou...en.htm#_europe

The list of countries is at the bottom.

[Triks]

Brave Tsar Boris ran away.
Bravely ran away, away!
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Tsar Boris turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Tsar Boris!

Fixed it for you

[Tinch]

Well if you feel that way. At least you won't pretend than that the UK is the best and Europe will die without it. Finally that little island can become a third world country.

Never once said Europe would die without us, just as we wouldn't die without it.

Third world country, nothing like a bit of hyperbole to finish off the point.

[Triks]

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/cou...en.htm#_europe

The list of countries is at the bottom.

Yeah, you know that Serbia and Montenegro are trying to negotiate a way in, right?