BREXIT - leave or remain?

[khalltusk]

I need to check out the BBC more.

You say it was a generational thing. Does that mean that older folks voted one way and the younger the next?



Damn that's crazy. Hopefully things can repair themselves.

The bigots should be punched right in the dick.

I personally believe the UK made the right call but I've got no dog in the fight.

The Police are treating any issues like that as a hate crime and are investigating (the case of the letters in peoples doors is one that they are looking into there are others). The Scottish ref, also had a similar thing going on. The people wanting to leave and those wanting to remain had so many people on either side flinging shit at each other. A lot of problems were causing during that campaign.

Sadly both the remain campaigns in the Scottish ref and the UK ref had a fear based campaign. Which in my eyes only serves to alienate the voters more.

Is it me or is May whos going for PM looking like Thatcher 2.0

[Spectral]

No, the problems are the perceived side effects. School places, NHS waits, social housing shortages. These aren't unpredictable or insurmountable issues.

Not all people are enthusiastic about cultural and demographic shifts either. For many, NHS waits are a lot less relevant than Great Britain becoming less British.

[Jessicka]

The problem is successive governments have failed to tackle these issues for so long that many people have taken the view that if they won't sort out the supply, then lets reduce the demand.

How's that an EU problem?

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Not all people are enthusiastic about cultural and demographic shifts either. For many, NHS waits are a lot less relevant than Great Britain becoming less British.

Think that's a relatively small proportion over all.

[TwoNineMarine]

The Police are treating any issues like that as a hate crime and are investigating (the case of the letters in peoples doors is one that they are looking into there are others). The Scottish ref, also had a similar thing going on. The people wanting to leave and those wanting to remain had so many people on either side flinging shit at each other. A lot of problems were causing during that campaign.

Sadly both the remain campaigns in the Scottish ref and the UK ref had a fear based campaign. Which in my eyes only serves to alienate the voters more.

Is it me or is May whos going for PM looking like Thatcher 2.0

Yeah fear based campaigns tend to never really help things. They certainly get their points across but at what cost?

I'm glad they are taking that stuff seriously and investigating it.

[Tinch]

Well you must be happy that even the leave campaign has said that leaving won't make much difference to immigration numbers.

Oh wait...

I don't associate myself with the leave campaign, I dislike half of the politicians that were in it and know that many of the facts that they quoted are sketchy at best (as were remains just to point out).

I just think we should be able to control the numbers either way. If the immigration numbers need to increase then so be it, and I believe the Australian points-based system is a sound one.

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How's that an EU problem?

Because free movement of people undoubtedly adds to that demand.

[Jessicka]

Because free movement of people undoubtedly adds to that demand.

But as net contributors, they pay for it. And very often cover it by working in it.

[khalltusk]

Yeah fear based campaigns tend to never really help things. They certainly get their points across but at what cost?

I'm glad they are taking that stuff seriously and investigating it.

We know part of the cost now, a divided country a leaderless government and the main opposition party who's own leadership has had a vote of no confidence against it. Not to mention the Pound flip flopped after the announcement and slowly climbed back up as no direct actions been taken yet.

The remain campaign was bad, but the leave campaign also out right lied. The £350 Million for the NHS they kept banging on about? They quickly back tracked on that. Immigration they back tracked on that. But thats just politicians doing what they always do.

At least we have Trump VS Clinton to look forward to for our latest popcorn fest

[Deleted]

Sadly both the remain campaigns in the Scottish ref and the UK ref had a fear based campaign. Which in my eyes only serves to alienate the voters more.

Remain warnings about economy that proved correct = fear-based campaign.

Leave blatant lies about NHS, immigration, getting a better deal, 5 billion Turkish invading etc. = good campaign that doesn't alienate voters?

[khalltusk]

Remain warnings about economy that proved correct = fear-based campaign.

Leave blatant lies about NHS, immigration, getting a better deal, 5 billion Turkish invading etc. = good campaign that doesn't alienate voters?

Care to read my other comments? No where did I say that remains campaign was a good one.

[Tinch]

But as net contributors, they pay for it. And very often cover it by working in it.

But that has not been trickling down to those at the bottom. All they see is an influx of immigrants who compete with them for jobs, suppress their wages in some sectors and contribute to an increased pressure on public services.

I agree with you that it is within the government's power to alleviate some of these issues, but they simply haven't done so an the rise in net migration only exacerbates the perception.

[Spectral]

Remain warnings about economy that proved correct = fear-based campaign.

A brief market dip isn't "the economy" and we're far too early to know how this will shake out for the British economy.

[Deleted]

Not all people are enthusiastic about cultural and demographic shifts either. For many, NHS waits are a lot less relevant than Great Britain becoming less British.

Well then their problem should be the non EU migration - but it isn't, because the EU is evil.

[Spectral]

Well then their problem should be the non EU migration - but it isn't, because the EU is evil.

The voters were given one meaningful lever to show their displeasure with the status quo. It sucks for them that it isn't the lever that will do what they want, but it shouldn't be surprising that people that don't like the status quo pulled that lever anyway.

[Tinch]

Remain warnings about economy that proved correct = fear-based campaign.

Leave blatant lies about NHS, immigration, getting a better deal, 5 billion Turkish invading etc. = good campaign that doesn't alienate voters?

Remain said that interests rates would rise when everyone is now predicting that they will be cut.

They used the figure of each household would be £4,300 worse off which they were told time and time again was misleading at best.

They factored in net migration of over 250k a year into their forecasts to show GDP growth if we remained in the EU, whilst at the same time still telling people they were going to cut numbers to the tens of thousands.

They warned that an emergency budget would be needed immediately after a leave vote - where has that got to?

Lets not pretend that it was just one side who played fast and loose with the facts.

[Rockyreg]

Remain warnings about economy that proved correct = fear-based campaign.

Leave blatant lies about NHS, immigration, getting a better deal, 5 billion Turkish invading etc. = good campaign that doesn't alienate voters?

I think people are missing the point entirely about the leave voters. Most rational leave voters see an inevitable dip in the economy as a necessary evil to get the things that they felt important. The arguments were broadly framed as economic vs sovereignty/immigration and the economic argument lost.

These voter polls were interesting I thought.

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-cont...gs-768x989.jpg

[Deleted]

A brief market dip isn't "the economy" and we're far too early to know how this will shake out for the British economy.

Quarter end is now. The next quarter end is just as a new PM should be taking over. That's a lot of uncertainty that won't really progress over that interim because of the up in the air nature of it all. I'd imagine any businesses that work on medium to long term commitments/agreements might be shitting bricks now. It's one of the reasons nobody with half a brain would wish for either the UK or the rest of the EU to suffer right now. In terms of manufacturing where preferential external manufacturers are awarded work I can easily see how the uncertainty might bump a UK supplier from preferred to secondary as the bottom line of using them now has an extra error bar thrown onto it.

[Deleted]

A brief market dip isn't "the economy" and we're far too early to know how this will shake out for the British economy.

We are really not - First the pound drop is the significant one, and reflects a market belief about less money coming into the UK
As for less money coming into the UK, well direct investment will be down until the uncertainty about the future clarifies -
The new pound value is likely to be a reflection of reality - while the stock market can be argued is just having a 'moment' the difference between the FTSE 100 and 250 are telling - the latter being mostly domestics are not rallying, while the 100 which is mostly multinationals (i.e Dollar and Euro earners who benefit from a low pound)

[TwoNineMarine]

We know part of the cost now, a divided country a leaderless government and the main opposition party who's own leadership has had a vote of no confidence against it. Not to mention the Pound flip flopped after the announcement and slowly climbed back up as no direct actions been taken yet.

The remain campaign was bad, but the leave campaign also out right lied. The

Yeah the Trump and Clinton deal is gonna be pretty hilarious. Can't wait for November lol

Was it known before that the PM would step down if Brexit happened?

[Deleted]

The voters were given one meaningful lever to show their displeasure with the status quo. It sucks for them that it isn't the lever that will do what they want, but it shouldn't be surprising that people that don't like the status quo pulled that lever anyway.

yeah i know, but in a sane society the populist would have been the generic kind, this time we have the 'hate the EU at all costs' kind.
Blaming the Tories for that, they still have their imperial dreams.

[Jessicka]

But that has not been trickling down to those at the bottom. All they see is an influx of immigrants who compete with them for jobs, suppress their wages in some sectors and contribute to an increased pressure on public services.

I agree with you that it is within the government's power to alleviate some of these issues, but they simply haven't done so an the rise in net migration only exacerbates the perception.

And successive Governments have scapegoated and used both immigration and the EU as an excuse to cover for their inaction on issues that were inherently created, and indeed solvable, entirely domestically.