EU Army on way? EU cannot rely on NATO and needs new defence policy...

[Xires]

So how come the US is basically British Empire 2.0 then? You did a shit job if you trying not to be like us.

We aren't British empire 2.0. We are asked by governments to stay. England when it had its empire...gave no choice to the host country.
England wouldn't spend its money rebuilding the economy and infrastructure of a country it defeated. The US has.
England would use their military to get resources. The US uses corporations.

[Holofernes]

EU army. What a shit idea.

So you're going to have over 25 countries with several different languages, all sorts of equipment ranging from modern NATO gear to Cold War era soviet equipment. How the hell is that going to work?

Imagine for a moment they're all forced to speak one language for the army, French, and there is extreme variation in everyone's ability to speak French and these potential soldiers will have to give and receive orders, while working with others in logistics and intelligence, all in the heat of battle in a language which most of them can't speak fluently

Thank fuck for brexit

Old Austria greets you. it had an army with over 20 languages spoken. it was a "bureaucracy", every unit had its countrys command language, the marine had italian, every officer had to learn the language of the regiment he was in, the language of the garrison, and german, but it stopped napoleon, the turks, the russians, and worked for 6 years with only Germany allied against the whole world surrounding. It was not very effective, it was not easy to maintain a war with a multinational army, but they did fight well for their country, even for a lost cause after over 70 years of peace.

So there are historic examples of a successful multinational army. And dont forget, most europeans do speak 2-3 languages well enough.

[Kalis]

1. Such as?
2. Because your political system is so much better, right?

Yours is based on Rome, which is why you have a Senate, not the British system.

3. You wanna talk about language and you have scotts, irish, and brits. Funny.

What are you on about? The Scottish are British for a start.

4. Cuisine? You must hate good food.

You have no idea what good food is, you as a person, not all Americans.

Dress? Uhh...the rest of the world copy's our style..not yours. You guys dress like it is still the 80's.

Have you heard of the business suit? It is the most popular form of business dress in the world and it is a British invention.

5. Like a handful of idiots practice Scientology and I've met like...2 mormons in my life.

Well done?

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We aren't British empire 2.0. We are asked by governments to stay. England when it had its empire...gave no choice to the host country.

This is not true, lots of regional rulers wanted us as we were useful against their local enemies. They often came to regret that decision, but that is also true of the US.

England wouldn't spend its money rebuilding the economy and infrastructure of a country it defeated. The US has.

India famously still uses the railways we built and the system of government we implemented - that is just two well known examples from one country.

England would use their military to get resources. The US uses corporations.

The East India Company was the basis of the British Empire in the East, it was a corporation. The British Empire basically started out as a business venture and turned into an Empire.

[Machismo]

Yours is based on Rome, which is why you have a Senate, not the British system.



What are you on about? The Scottish are British for a start.



You have no idea what good food is, you as a person, not all Americans.



Have you heard of the business suit? It is the most popular form of business dress in the world and it is a British invention.



Well done?

I pity those who are forced to wear business suits. Although they look great, people only wear them because they are obligated to do so. I vowed long ago to never work for an employer, or in an occupation that required I wear a business suit.

[Deleted]

We are a "subject" of nobody. The constitution was to prevent us from being like Europe.

You do realize the constitution was heavily inspired by a document written by the English about 500 years before it? Not saying that it isn't an outstanding document. And do you like the constiotution? Are you proud of it? Then you might be interested in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN9n6cVQp4I

Oh and the FED is blatantly unconstitutional and has existed for 100 years now.

[Vynny]

First of all a super power isn't measured only by its military strength. It is measured by its economy, political influence etc etc.

EU as an entity is the richest thing on earth atm. It is better than either USA or China.
Secondly, EU doesn't need to match USA military, just have the capability to do so when we want it. There is absolutely no reason to have such a big army if you are not planning on invading other countries or power projecting. Our needs will be our external borders and thats it.
Lastly, need i to say about our influence? We have shaped this world. USA is our creation, look at Africa, South America, East..

We would be a force to be reckoned with.

The EU and the USA have pretty much the same GDP with the EU pulling slighting ahead by less than a whole unit, but when you consider population sizes, it doesn't favor the EU. The EU has about 500 million people; whereas, the USA only has about 300 million, so saying that the EU is competing with the USA despite that advantage is like bragging about a V8 barely pulling ahead of a V6 in horsepower. Besides that, the USA was not a European creation, the most you could claim is that we're a British creation, but even that doesn't account for things such as the federal system which was based on the Iroquois Confederacy, an explicit separation of Church and State which is not very common in European countries, and the Idea of constitutional rights was first implemented in the USA. And no, the Magna Carta was a limiter of government power, but it didn't codify any rights like freedom of expression into law which is why the UK actually doesn't have something equivalent to the USA's first amendment.

On top of that, this kinda thinking makes me picture an absentee parent coming into their child's life after they're already an adult and claiming credit for all of the success that they've achieved despite not being there. I mean think about it, Britain's abuses of the colonies made them leave and not want to be European or British anymore, and then after that point, Europe either left the USA alone or tried interfering with their affairs all the way up until recently where now the USA is the most powerful country in the whole world. So no, fuck off, Europe doesn't get credit for the success of it's estranged child just because they planted the seed and then tried their best to bend it to their will like some fucking banzai tree.

Lastly, as it's been pointed out many times in this thread, the USA does the majority of NATO funding and you're also been informed that if the EU wanted to even keep pace with US military spending then all of the countries within it would have to quadruple their military spending, now what do you think that would do to their economy? If your answer is "make it fucking tank" then you'd be right. The fact of the matter is that you're the EU can keep pace with the USA economically and militarily when the USA is already carrying most of your military burden as is, so please, keep talking about how the EU is on par with the USA despite the EU getting almost free military service in comparison to what the USA contributes to the pot thus handicapping the USA.

[Shadowferal]

Y'know...I don't understand the hate some are posting for our allies here (and dare I say friends?)

France remembers the US every year at Normandy Beach. And if you go over there at the time, you won't hate. But you will likely feel a bit sad.

The US Constitution has had several sources of inspiration ranging from the Magna Carta, several philosophers (English and French) and even Native American (After Ben Franklin observed the Iroquois)

[Holofernes]

if you want to have a a look on military spending and capabilities, this wikipedia article (although german) has nice tables of everything.
EU combined isnt that far behind US , on spending and on actual gear numbers (but i think it still includes GB), and it is by far the worlds 2nd military power. And jesus, imagine if EU feel the need to actually emphasize on Military spendings, to a scale like the US does. Game of Thrones "Build my a thousand ships" could be citated, and easily realised.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa...te-overview-16

[Queen of Hamsters]

Fucking humanity. It's as if we learned nothing from experiencing 2 world wars already...

[Bushtuckrman]

Well you can't have a dictatorship without an effective army to keep the rest in line now can you? I knew about this last year when the drafts were leaked. I have the PDF somewhere on my comp. It is just another reason why the EU needs to collapse.

[Ulmita]

Fucking humanity. It's as if we learned nothing from experiencing 2 world wars already...

Union is the answer. Unions prevent wars.

[Dzivoklis]

Union is the answer. Unions prevent wars.

Just like League of Nations did.

Hint : read Norman Angell.

[Kalis]

Union is the answer. Unions prevent wars.

We have a union called NATO. Nobody will fuck with NATO, or they will get stomped and nobody wants to get stomped, that makes it a good union to be in for defence.

[Vynny]

Common Law is an English invention, your political system is based on Rome, your trade is based on capitalsim (which is not an American invention), your military policy is based on the British Empire model, emancipation of slaves was a British idea, etc.

Common law has nothing to do with constitutional rights. Common law is the precedent system incorporated into courts. The political system in the USA is a mish mash of Democracy which is Greek in origin, Republicanism which is Roman in origin, and Federalism which is Iroquois in origin. The concept of separation of church and state is original to the USA and is not implemented in most European countries, and the first abolitionist movement in America started in the 1730's in Georgia and was spearheaded by James Oglethorpe who had slavery banned in Georgia until 1743 and Vermont had already officially banned adult slavery in 1777 whereas the abolitionist movement in Britain didn't even take off until after the conclusion of the Somersett case in 1772.

[InDecisive]

Interesting. What do you guys think? I personally have been calling for this for a long time now. We do need to differentiate from NATO, we need to pursue our own goals and strategy when it comes to security. Most importantly though, a unified army is a good step towards a super state, a federalized EU.

Britain was the only country that was opposing this and was threatening to veto. But now with the Brits outside the picture a way is paved for the creation of one.

No, I think you'll find most people through Europe don't want their sovereign nations subsumed into a vast, cultureless, and utterly unaccountable EU superstate. Federal EU can go fuck itself and then jump off a bridge, thank you very much.

[Independent voter]

An EU defense could've thwarted Putin's plan to destroy the EU. How? By intervening when Putin had Russia's long term ally Assad, the Shiite president of Syria, drive Syrian Sunnis like into the EU as refugees.

An EU defense force could've invaded Syria and set up safe zones for the Syrian Sunnis so the Syrian Sunnis wouldn't have become refugees.

Britain would still be in EU.

[Kalis]

Common law has nothing to do with constitutional rights. Common law is the precedent system incorporated into courts. The political system in the USA is a mish mash of Democracy which is Greek in origin, Republicanism which is Roman in origin, and Federalism which is Iroquois in origin. The concept of separation of church and state is original to the USA and is not implemented in most European countries, and the first abolitionist movement in America started in the 1730's in Georgia and was spearheaded by James Oglethorpe who had slavery banned in Georgia until 1743 and Vermont had already officially banned adult slavery in 1777 whereas the abolitionist movement in Britain didn't even take off until after the conclusion of the Somersett case in 1772.

That is some quality revisionism there.

Federalism predated the Iroquois in European thought. How much of US politics is based on Greek democracy? And I stated that Rome was the model for the US political system, so not sure why you mentioned that.

Separation of church and state as a concept predated the US, it has ancient roots, though the more modern concept is closer to the foundation of the US, but prior to it.

I Googled James Oglethorpe, he was British, how are you trying to claim that goes against my statement that America is the child of British thought when the person you are using as an example is British?

[Donald Hellscream]

And what would the language be? Hopefully not french as that would cause serious language barrier Issues.

[Ulmita]

And what would the language be? Hopefully not french as that would cause serious language barrier Issues.

English as it is in NATO.

[Deleted]

English as it is in NATO.

Good luck getting the French to agree to that.