Page 17 of 17 FirstFirst ...
7
15
16
17
  1. #321
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndor View Post
    I am pretty sure that you dont do it for fun,. Actuly i am pretty sure you are not eve subbed to wow right now becouse you have so much fun doing lfr right?
    Actually I haven't been subbed since last September but I had a lot of fun in LFR prior to that. The mythic format is why I am not playing any more and is what killed my guild after 10 years... Heroic is what doesn't cut it.

    LFR may not be for guild groups but I've had some pretty epic experiences pulling kills out of the the chaotic mess that often ensues.

  2. #322
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by hachidori View Post
    I don't understand why people think the only thing that matters in this game is raiding. Yes, I'm "contributing" to raiding; that doesn't mean I have to ever see it.
    You quoted me so I assume this is directed at me. I do not believe raiding is the only thing that matters. If I contributed towards the epic tale being told I would like to experience it, seems a fair agreement to me. I don't need to see everything but I'd like to see what I can within my limitations.

    Perhaps if blizzard could charge raiders more per month to fund content non-raiders don't see they would appreciate those who never raid, or those who like LFR for what it is a little more.

    All LFR'ers really want to say is leave us our little playground. It's not as epic as yours, we don't get the shiniest stuff like you do but we're happy here.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferwyn View Post
    Hardcore raiders think LFR shouldn't excist. In other news, Is water wet? More at 6.

    EDIT: I thought there was already a "LFR" thread going on? Why does this need a new one because some hardcore raiders made a video?
    Its a sad attempt to get more views, thumbs up, and subscriptions for their youtube channel. By making a new thread and posting it in the OP its going to get more attention that X post in an already long thread.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    No. Absolutely not. You're caught up in the old way of MMOs, the entire genre has changed in the last decade. MMOs prior to WoW were a very very niche activity for the amazingly hardcore gamer nerd. Now they're not anymore.

    Saying that we need to remove LFR because of how the game used to be a more social game is like saying we need resists/weapon skills/experience loss on death/other shit that MMOs used to have because that's the way it used to be. Sorry but automation in group finding and such is just the way that MMOs are now, and the way that MMOs need to be if Blizzard wants to keep their casual audience. I've said it, casuals have said it, Blizzard themselves have said it, the people who LFR is for have never and will never actually raid. Removing LFR won't make players more social, it won't make them want to raid, it will make them quit. Plain and simple.

    If you REALLY want to get rid of LFR and make "Normal" the casual mode, you're going to need to put the requirements for it in the hands of the game, not the players, and make queuing/joining/etc automated like LFR, or else there will be no endgame within reach for casual gamers.



    No, actually. Blizzard themselves have stated that the players who run LFR are players who never have raided, and that players would not rise to meet the challenge, they'd just quit. The last thing this game needs is more players quitting. Heh.
    This entire post boils own to "all these bad features killing the game need to stay in because they've been doing it for a while now."

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Propainn View Post
    I have a problem with people who create a subjective safe space for themselves and ignore the objective reality around them. If you think 6-9 hrs is a sizable chunk of time, than MMORPGs are not for you, I'm sorry. You will call me elitist, or whatever other endearing term you come up with, but that's the truth.

    Enjoy what you enjoy, but don't lie to yourself and others in the manner that you currently are.
    Well if that isn't the pot calling the kettle back I don't know what is.

    Also the argument of (MMORPG's are not for you) doesn't work. This has never have been or ever will be a niche MMO. If you was talking about EVE that argument mite have a little weight. But this is World of Warcraft and it was founded on catering to all player styles but the number 1 was the casual playstyle.
    Check me out....Im └(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┐└(-.-)┐ Dancing, Im └(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┐└(-.-)┐ Dancing.
    My Gaming PC: MSI Trident 3 - i7-10700F - RTX 4060 8GB - 32GB DDR4 - 1TB M.2SSD

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Cassidin View Post
    I never heard any player, new or old, express that they had "completed the game" because they had done LFR. In fact, almost NOONE completes the game - even people with Mythic Arch on farm - there are things in the game they havent done still - so they havent "completed" the game. It may be that people completed "all the game they wanted to" - but what's wrong with that?

    This feeling that LFR people kill something on LFR and think "job done" refuse to apply the same idea to normal and heroic. Why? Surely a guild that only does normal or heroic is just as bad because thy haven't "completed" the raiding. So what? Why does this matter?
    I have. On mmo-champion, most people are above the average players, damn, a mythic raider might laugh at another here calling him a noob. Mythic raiders are the God-tier of WoW players, even Normal raiders are pretty damn good compared to most.

    We know how WoW works, we know about the content, and we know that completing Normal mode of a raid is just the start, and we gonna have more fun in HC or Mythic. An average player does not. The way the game used to display it, there was no initiative to pursue anything after LFR - which completed the story and gave the best possible loot. Yeah, best possible - HC loot only gives bigger numbers on gear that works and looks the same.

    Normal and Heroic don't work this way, because their very core is completly different than LFR. In raiding you progress, push yourself harder with skills, tactics, and gear you get. All this is further supported by the fact that you need likeminded people to go with you. LFR works in a different manner: you are randomly assigned into a group of strangers - who might just as well be npcs for you. Every boss is going to die, sooner or later, giving you no real sense of progression, and since all the tiers of LFR are on the same gear level, you don't feel getting progressively stronger. Finishing LFR doesnt make you feel like tackling an increasingly difficult challenge on a higher level, whereas in normal it's natural that killing normal Archi just starts your progression on HC mode.

    I'm not ranting here that LFR should be removed. In Legion it looks just about right - with its difficulty and gear it's gonna leave no doubts that it's just tourist mode, a prelude to real raiding. WoD improved LFR a bit in the same way - you might argue that not giving players the same tier and trinkets as Normal/HC/Mythic is unfair, but it certainly does push them to at least try real raiding. LFR is a thing that certainly should exist, but in Mists it was quite damaging to the game, and the game should be moving away from that kind of LFR.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by NoobistTV-Metro View Post
    Guys, this discussion needs some arbitration because right now it looks like a civil war.
    Listen to me for a moment and you'll understand why LFR does indeed need to be and should be removed.

    First of all, we are all humans playing a video game. I am not a hardcore raider or an LFR raider. I'm a person who is paying to play this video game with other humans.

    A very significant portion of this game's purpose and enjoyment is social interactions, big or small. I personally have made friendships in this game that are even stronger than any friendships I have in real life. I've been raiding with 10+ people for 8 years now and another 5+ for 6 years. Over this time, we have developed incredibly strong ties to each other.
    Do you know why?
    Not because we have a lot in common, not because we are all super agreeable.
    Its because we were plunged together into a guild that was completing content regularly on a set schedule attempting to improve every time we got together (IE Progression.)

    Doing so, we learned three important things about each other.
    1. Who was and wasn't reliable. We need to be online at a specific time, we need to be mentally and physically prepared for multiple hours of play a night, and we needed to sometimes do things we didn't enjoy to help each other succeed.
    2. We learned who cared about the group and who only cared about themselves. We only raid two nights a week, so there shouldn't be much drama on that schedule, but we would see people who get upset about loot, refuse to take direction, and continually battle leadership on small points.
    3. A lot of us grew up together. When I started this guild I was 19 years old. Some of the raiders were 15~. Now I am 27. We all went through a lot in our lives - children born, divorces, deaths, even worse. But because we spent so much time together there was always 1 constant for us to look forward too no matter what the real life threw our way.

    What's this have to do with LFR? Tell me, has a group like this EVER formed out of LFR? Ever, even once? I honestly would be extremely surprised, because LFR does not foster these social interactions, and it certainly doesn't emulate raiding. On top of these social situations, progression raiding even for the hyper casual consists of these things.

    1. Improving from your mistakes. Every time you wipe, you should learn something. Some groups this takes longer than others, but it does happen. In LFR this never happens because Blizzard makes you improve. You can pull the boss 10 times, wipe 9 and never learn a thing. This DOES happen too, as we get raiders apply and when we ask them if they now the fights they say "I've done it on LFR" but fail the first mechanic.
    2. Learn about your class and how you can play it to a better percentile. There is no competition in LFR, because so many are just there to get in and out. There is never any challenge to overcome, so no one learns to play their class properly. In progression, you must improve outside of gear. Some times you have to switch talents or even specs to maximize your performance. And any one who has raided knows how important being Sub compared to Combat is on certain fights.
    3. Proper raid etiquette. Show up on time, be at the raid ready to go, have potions for pre-potting and food for yumyum time. Tell people when you are going AFK. Don't demand gear, especially for your offspec. Be attentive for the entirety of the raid or don't join it. In LFR you can just come and go as your please, because it doesn't even matter to anyone. No one spent time putting this group together, and there is no penalty if you leave. There is also no penalty for intentionally trolling the group or under-performing on purpose. All things that foster bad raid etiquette and contribute to the lack of social identity the game has now.

    So TLDR?
    LFR contains no strong social elements and almost no progression raid elements. These are fundamental to raiding in WoW and have been persistent from Classic to WoD.

    In short, everyone should WANT to play this game and meet friends. Its an MMOrpg. You should WANT to complete all the content, and do your best along the way.
    And we are all human beings. No one has any more of an advantage than any other player. I lead a guild that raids 8 hours a week and we still clear full mythics most of the tiers.
    It doesn't take 40 hours a week, and it can be done with anyone, even people with full time jobs and families. I would know.
    Raiding is something more than just playing a video game. Its creating incredibly strong social atmospheres and learning about central leadership, learning from mistakes, and understanding a group dynamic - all things that can be applied to any business in the real world.

    Compared to even normal, LFR is like going to preschool. You couldn't fail if you wanted, and you are more being babysat than learning anything.
    It was added because at the time the ONLY option was progression raiding. Raids required a lot of time before LFR.
    But now there is Normal. All they need to do is make it a little bit easier, and that's that. LFR has no purpose.

    To anyone who has read this all and is going to post that I'm an elitist or a comment like "Don't like it, don't do it," I urge you to take a breath. I am no different than you. I have a great deal of commitments IRL, so if anything, I would be thankful for something like LFR if it actually worked. But its just not how the game was meant to be played. ANYONE can do Normal, and once you start, you realize that anyone can do Mythic too. The only reason you think you can't is because you have never tried.

    And to anyone who feels like they can't because they aren't able to find the right social fit, PM me. I'll see if there is a way we can play together in Legion and hopefully enrich your WoW life along the way.
    I just want this game to be respected again. Removing LFR would do so much good in that respect, as it would funnel thousands of players into real difficulty, real social atmosphere, and real challenge.
    Great, well thought-out post, and you grasp the concept 100%. LFR isn't about who is casual, who is elitist, and who pays to "create the content". LFR is anti-MMORPG, and at the end of the day, if you don't enjoy playing with other people, then maybe you should question why you are even playing World of Warcraft.

    (btw, please don't tell me that the very minimal social interaction that goes on in LFR is engaging and fulfilling)

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    In Legion, perhaps, but in WoD it was the lowest 6.2 gearing option available. To get to the highest ilvl without being in a Heroic+ raid you had to either do Tanaan and get decked out in 695s or do PVP until you got 700 and 710 gear. 6.2's LFR was an afterthought that is only "mandatory" if you can't find a normal raid that will take you for your legendary drops.
    6.2 is the end of expansion, LFR in WoD was greatly nerfed I was talking about LFR in Legion as beta tester.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by ct67 View Post
    Actually I haven't been subbed since last September but I had a lot of fun in LFR prior to that. The mythic format is why I am not playing any more and is what killed my guild after 10 years... Heroic is what doesn't cut it.

    LFR may not be for guild groups but I've had some pretty epic experiences pulling kills out of the the chaotic mess that often ensues.
    Best to ignore him I called him on his bullshit about saying I'm not subbed and I don't enjoy LFR.

    I am more then happy to stream or add him to prove him wrong as well.
    Check me out....Im └(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┐└(-.-)┐ Dancing, Im └(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┐└(-.-)┐ Dancing.
    My Gaming PC: MSI Trident 3 - i7-10700F - RTX 4060 8GB - 32GB DDR4 - 1TB M.2SSD

  10. #330
    Bloodsail Admiral
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Industrial heart of the USSR... now torn apart
    Posts
    1,122
    I disagree that LFR should be removed completely, it should be reworked a little bit. Mechanics should be fewer in number but hit much stronger. The video has many good arguments but their thesis is wrong: LFR is not intended to teach people to raid or lure them into raiding. Sad but true. Blizzard should provide more chances for genuine new players to get into Normal+, that's completely different story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    It's not 2004. People have lives, jobs, families etc

  11. #331
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Propainn View Post
    I have a problem with people who create a subjective safe space for themselves and ignore the objective reality around them. If you think 4-9 hrs over the course of a week is a sizable chunk of time, than MMORPGs are not for you, I'm sorry. You will call me elitist, or whatever other endearing term you come up with, but that's the truth.

    Enjoy what you enjoy, but don't lie to yourself and others in the manner that you currently are.
    You have a problem...
    You think MMOs are not for me....
    ..thats the truth.

    You genuinely made me laugh because from my position, regardless of whether you see yourself as such, you ARE being elitest.

    I actually spend about 4-9 hours on WoW a week but I don't log in, aim to raid, and log off. I do other stuff too. I'm levelling characters, checking stuff out I missed on previous characters on both sides. LFR fits into this nicely hence why I disagree with those of you want it gone. Removing LFR pushes raiding out of my ability to do it which I am not happy with.

    No matter how much you look at your life and see how time works for you, how you are organised etc, you cannot insist that your arrangement will work for others, which is essentially what you have done in your post.

  12. #332
    Tier sets in LFR fucks over raiders. I don't want to have to do LFR but I am at a disadvantage if I don't.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Cynep View Post
    I disagree that LFR should be removed completely, it should be reworked a little bit. Mechanics should be fewer in number but hit much stronger. The video has many good arguments but their thesis is wrong: LFR is not intended to teach people to raid or lure them into raiding. Sad but true. Blizzard should provide more chances for genuine new players to get into Normal+, that's completely different story.
    They should make NM queable, Make LFR the mode to see the raid can get ur feet wet but NM to be the learning mode.
    Check me out....Im └(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┐└(-.-)┐ Dancing, Im └(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┐└(-.-)┐ Dancing.
    My Gaming PC: MSI Trident 3 - i7-10700F - RTX 4060 8GB - 32GB DDR4 - 1TB M.2SSD

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Propainn View Post
    I have a problem with people who create a subjective safe space for themselves and ignore the objective reality around them. If you think 4-9 hrs over the course of a week is a sizable chunk of time, than MMORPGs are not for you, I'm sorry. You will call me elitist, or whatever other endearing term you come up with, but that's the truth.
    What guild raids and cleared Mythic playing only 4 hours a week? I'd like to apply to them.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Propainn View Post
    I have a problem with people who create a subjective safe space for themselves and ignore the objective reality around them. If you think 6-9 hrs is a sizable chunk of time, than MMORPGs are not for you, I'm sorry. You will call me elitist, or whatever other endearing term you come up with, but that's the truth.

    Enjoy what you enjoy, but don't lie to yourself and others in the manner that you currently are.
    6-9hr is a median work day where I live. It IS a sizable chunk of time. You're the one who ignore reality around you. People had job, family, friend and other things to do in reality. A game IS a safe space and not a job. LFR give some people good times and DOESN'T EVEN AFFECT the true hardcore raider. Truth is, it's the LFR-Hero who pay for the mythic raiding. Without LFR, raiding will be like Trial of Crusader with an arena and 5 boss. LFR bring ressources to the raid team.

    MMORPG are not like EQ anymore. It was decades ago. WoW rise up as the casual mmorpg against the hardcores one and it continue to be that way.

  16. #336
    I don't see how LFR is enjoyable, when I do it to gear some alts I just AFK most of the time and try to get back in time when the boss is dead. Its surprising how I still end up pretty high on DPS recount while just mostly auto attacking. I don't see the point in WoD's LFR to even exist, but I don't think it should be removed, it should be improved. Atleast make the bosses harder and the loot better, so that even LFR pugs need to atleast follow some tactics which could require some communication. Like in Galakros during SoO, you still had to make groups for who does the towers.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Rickykong View Post
    Tier sets in LFR fucks over raiders. I don't want to have to do LFR but I am at a disadvantage if I don't.
    I got bad news for ya....Tier returns in Legion and real raiders won't give a fuck.

    Why will they not give a fuck???? Because there guild will steamroll the raid in 20mins doing split runs or just outright ignore it. The problem with your group is you bitch and moan about anything worth getting being outside of NM+ raiding.
    Check me out....Im └(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┐└(-.-)┐ Dancing, Im └(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┐└(-.-)┐ Dancing.
    My Gaming PC: MSI Trident 3 - i7-10700F - RTX 4060 8GB - 32GB DDR4 - 1TB M.2SSD

  18. #338
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Tralfamadore
    Posts
    32,405
    At the end of the day this is just another LFR argument of which we have had many. Like very many. It doesn't seem like there's really any point in going over all of this again and again every time someone does a video about it.

    There is another ongoing thread about LFR going on in the Raids and Dungeons forum:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...of-LFR-players

    Please continue this there. Closing.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •