BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Triks]

Did you miss her speech? She specifically said brexit means brexit and she won't accept unfettered free movement.

Also said there will be no GE which is a bug surprise to me.

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What people say they will do and what people will do are two different things.

EDIT: I am off to play some EU IV - I will answer when/if I am back.

[Skroe]

Did you miss her speech? She specifically said brexit means brexit and she won't accept unfettered free movement.

Also said there will be no GE which is a bug surprise to me.

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Yeah and Obama was gonna close GITMO.

Talk is cheap.

[Tinch]

What people say they will do and what people will do are two different things.

Yet were supposed to take all eu politicians at their word? [emoji6]

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[Deleted]

Yeah and Obama was gonna close GITMO.

Talk is cheap.

But for May to stay in past half a term she has to be Thatcher 2.0 in some ways as one truth in politics is "old people vote". Whatever people have to say about Thatcher, she didn't U-turn(flip-flop for colonial types ) on stuff. It was her thing.

[Shadowmelded]

Teresa May is likely PM.

Brexit is dying.

This the woman who wanted to take us out of the ECHR.

[Skroe]

Yet were supposed to take all eu politicians at their word? [emoji6]

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I don't know why anyone would take any politician at their word, anywhere, about anything.

This is a recurring theme in 2016. It's mindboggling the amount of times I've said this refrain: "since when have we started trusting politicians?".

Like are a ton of people fresh out of the womb or something? You don't trust Bernie Fucking Sanders. You don't trust Barack Obama. You don't trust Hillary Clinton. You don't trust Boris Johnson. You don't trust Teresa May. You don't Trust David Cameron.

You don't trust these people because they are politician. THis is not a new concept. Except apparently, in 2016 where some weird subset of people are shocked that political figures use outright lying is their equivalent of a 'Hadoken'.

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This the woman who wanted to take us out of the ECHR.

Wanting something when you're a backbencher / in the minority / in the background and wanting something when you have power are two entirely different things.

It's easy to complain about things when you're one voice among many. It's much harder when it is your job to press the big red button to do something about it. Ironically, in the Western World, power is often a moderating force.

[Shadowmelded]

Wanting something when you're a backbencher / in the minority / in the background and wanting something when you have power are two entirely different things.

It's easy to complain about things when you're one voice among many. It's much harder when it is your job to press the big red button to do something about it. Ironically, in the Western World, power is often a moderating force.

She was Home Secretary at the time when she tried to do this. Her policies include; kick out immigrants earning less than £35k, kick out foreign graduates and has constantly railed against the EU when she botches a deportation.

[Skroe]

She was Home Secretary at the time when she tried to do this. Her policies include; kick out immigrants earning less than £35k, kick out foreign graduates and has constantly railed against the EU when she botches a deportation.

And yet, she was 'Remain'...

[Independent voter]

In the US we've got lot's of stuff we could give Trump supporters, people who have less than college education and have suffered from globalization.

Universal healthcare! lol

Just shut up about globalization and we'll pay your medical bills.

[Shadowmelded]

And yet, she was 'Remain'...

Political calculation. Given Remain were favourites and Cameron didn't seem to be stepping down for another 4 years it wasn't a bad idea. Well, until the vote came in at least.

[Deleted]

And yet, she was 'Remain'...

She said that she was for remain to back Cameron and because they were the favourites, but she's specifically stayed away from the campaign itself so that she could be elected by people who voted Remain and Leave.

[TheTaurenOrc]

Oh christ the prospects of May for PM is far scarier than Brexit to me!

I lived in her constituency for 10 years and its a shit hole. What the hell happened I left the country 5 years a go, last thing I remember she was dancing around at the party conference in leopard print high heals, now shes bookies favorite for PM!?

[Floopa]

Teresa is a better candidate than the complete idiot that is Gove

Personally I'd prefer Farage for shits and giggles but there we go

[Deleted]

I agree and I wouldn't advocate majority rule in the overwhelming majority of cases.

But I believe the EU referendum was different, this was a fundamental issue of democratic control.

In general I agree, although I also think the EU referendum was designed as a very heavily-loaded question because it stretched so far beyond a simple choice between Westminster-vs-Brussels.

Of course, it's likely that the question was heavily-loaded on purpose because it was supposedly a way to silence a minority in the far-right within a political party, and the 'average' UK voter over the past 40 years or so hasn't really cared much about democratic control of Westminster-vs-Brussels, yet they care a lot about economic stability - so the assumption at the time was that nobody in their right mind would actually vote to leave because the economic argument should have been a no-brainer; it must have seemed fairly safe to hold a referendum to ask the electorate whether they want a stable economy or not, framed as a vote about democratic control.

So while the majority vote for democratic control is a good thing, I can't help but feel that democratic control really wasn't the issue driving so many people to the polls. Elections for MEPs have always had a very low turnout in the past, and despite the high turnout and the result it feels like many of the people who voted (on both sides) weren't interested in who governs us, but were excited about having a populist vote on some of the kinds of issues which they normally wouldn't be asked to vote on - particularly immigration and trade agreements.

[Slant]

Yeah and Obama was gonna close GITMO.

Talk is cheap.

I like your new style, to the point and short. Are you adapting to the attention span of these posters?

[Deleted]

This the woman who wanted to take us out of the ECHR.

But not out of the EU - Think that might have been why she said it.

[Shadowmelded]

But not out of the EU - Think that might have been why she said it.

Perhaps, but the problem she was trying to fix wouldn't have been solved unless we left the ECJ as well and there is opinion that leaving the ECHR would have jeopardized our EU membership since it's used to determine whether a state has the respect for human rights required for membership. Now obviously whatever was put in it's place most likely wouldn't have been great departure from the ECHR but it wasn't a guarantee that the Commission would agree.

This is still someone who made up a story about someone being prevented from being deported because they had a cat-flap thanks to "European judges", ignoring the fact that they were British judges and the cat-flap thing wasn't a consideration at all. She peddles the same anti-EU rhetoric, whether she nails her colours to the mast or not.

[Skroe]

I like your new style, to the point and short. Are you adapting to the attention span of these posters?

LOL, I'm trying something new. I still write books!

[Tinch]

I don't know why anyone would take any politician at their word, anywhere, about anything.

This is a recurring theme in 2016. It's mindboggling the amount of times I've said this refrain: "since when have we started trusting politicians?".

Like are a ton of people fresh out of the womb or something? You don't trust Bernie Fucking Sanders. You don't trust Barack Obama. You don't trust Hillary Clinton. You don't trust Boris Johnson. You don't trust Teresa May. You don't Trust David Cameron.

You don't trust these people because they are politician. THis is not a new concept. Except apparently, in 2016 where some weird subset of people are shocked that political figures use outright lying is their equivalent of a 'Hadoken'.

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Wanting something when you're a backbencher / in the minority / in the background and wanting something when you have power are two entirely different things.

It's easy to complain about things when you're one voice among many. It's much harder when it is your job to press the big red button to do something about it. Ironically, in the Western World, power is often a moderating force.

I don't trust politicians, I just know it would be political suicide for any politician in the UK to try and reverse the brexit vote.

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[Skroe]

Political calculation. Given Remain were favourites and Cameron didn't seem to be stepping down for another 4 years it wasn't a bad idea. Well, until the vote came in at least.

You're telling me that her first act as PM will be to push the Big Red Button that triggers Official Brexit, and throw the UK into recession?

Somehow I rather doubt it. It's 2016. Bold Politicians only exist in the history books. We mostly have people now who talk a good game, but when it comes to making the hard choices, they'll routinely do the least disruptive, most conservative (in the sense of not being a massive change of direction) thing possible.

David Cameron was arguably bold with his two ill advised referendums. And look what that got him. The first, over Scotland, was only saved from Disaster by Gordon Brown, a Labour Scot. The second destroyed his reputation and career.

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I don't trust politicians, I just know it would be political suicide for any politician in the UK to try and reverse the brexit vote.

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And that's why you don't reverse it outright.

You just do nothing. You talk and debate and kick the can down the road. Days become weeks. Weeks become months. Months become Years. You kill it with silence. You kill it with inaction. Brexit dies from neglect.

The further in time from the vote we go, the less likely Article 50 will ever be invoked.