No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Bun-Bun]

I do feel a lot like you on this. To me flying isn't only a convenience, I rarely think of it as that at all truth be told.

Me either. FPs are a convenience that adds nothing to the game. They were cool in vanilla when you realized "holy crap there's no load screen!" but other than that, nothing.

Flight adds a lot to the game whether some people care for that or not.

[Maudib]

Basically yes, some convenience is good, too much convenience is bad. Having options to travel around the continent quickly can help gameplay, having a button that positions you wherever you need to be can trivialise gameplay. Similarly having powerfuly abilities to kill mobs can help gameplay, having a button that one-shots all the mobs can trivialise gameplay. Having rewards to work towards can help gameplay, having everything mailed to you for logging in can trivialise gameplay.

From a design standpoint, it makes more sense for you to fight your way towards an objective then conveniently get brought back to town/flightpoint then it does to get dropped next to your target then either fight your way back out or get dropped back in town.

You mean like logging in on a fresh alt... and fully equipping them in Heirlooms? You mean like having 300% EXP potions?

I have to disagree... Riding to a location, then calling a taxi makes no sense whatsoever... and certainly from a "design standpoint". How, if yo think it's immersive to fight your way there, is it OK or justifiable to NOT fight your way back?

What is justifiable is that I have been flying at max level for 8+ years. It has worked just great for me. I love it... truly love it. It makes the game feel great to me.

[Bun-Bun]

Some degree of "delaying the consumption of content" is expected and desirable so just because it isn't tuned to be completed as quickly as you may like doesn't mean that not pandering to people who want to be gratified as quickly as possible is a bad move.

There is a difference between well designed progression and artificially delaying content.

Without flight the content is still excessively gated as it is, for that reason I don't accept your argument. Is it possible to design content that flight doesn't ruin? Yes, they have proven that in the past.

Put it this way, since flight has been added back to WoD I don't get to my goals any faster as they are still gated; I still have to do the content. But less tedium + shear enjoyment from flight is allowing me to play the game more than I was previously and enjoy MORE content than otherwise.

[rda]

Just saw that Legion is going to have its own version of Aviana's Feather.

ROFL, no, it's toooooootally not like WoD. They toooooootally have learned their lesson.

And, by the way, I remember someone was talking about 'immersion'. Yeah, that is totally the reason they removed flying and added the feather.

- - - Updated - - -

Basically yes, some convenience is good, too much convenience is bad.

And how do you determine that magic quantity of convenience when it's too much and good turns to bad??

Why, obviously, I am not sure why I am even asking. It's whatever Blizzard are doing.

[Maneo]

Me either. FPs are a convenience that adds nothing to the game. They were cool in vanilla when you realized "holy crap there's no load screen!" but other than that, nothing.

True although now I would just prefer a loading screen. I built a gaming rig and pay for High speed internet for a reason.. my load times are typically 3-6 secs. I would take that in a heart beat over the herpy derpy flight paths WoW offers.. It was a fine travel system for 2004 ... it just isn't 2004 anymore... it is quite a regression for the genre actually.

Flight adds a lot to the game whether some people care for that or not.

Flight enables content, by reducing the tedium and annoyance of dealing w/leveling content while attempting to get to content that is relevant for your character.

[Bun-Bun]

I built a gaming rig and pay for High speed internet for a reason.. my load times are typically 3-6 secs.

Internet speed doesn't affect your load times, all the assets are on your PC. 3-6 secs is enough to break immersion for me. It was one of the things that really attracted me to wow back in the day, just how seamless it was.

Then they released flight in BC and amplified that experience even more. Amazing!

Then they take it away with poor excuses regressing them back a decade

- - - Updated - - -

Flight enables content, by reducing the tedium and annoyance of dealing w/leveling content while attempting to get to content that is relevant for your character.

Exactly. I play WoD a lot more now than I did. Actually I let my sub expire before stepping foot into Highmaul, with flight now I am actually doing things everyday and gearing up my toon.

[Eapoe]

Just saw that Legion is going to have its own version of Aviana's Feather.

ROFL, no, it's toooooootally not like WoD. They toooooootally have learned their lesson.

And, by the way, I remember someone was talking about 'immersion'. Yeah, that is totally the reason they removed flying and added the feather.

- - - Updated - - -



And how do you determine that magic quantity of convenience when it's too much and good turns to bad??

Why, obviously, I am not sure why I am even asking. It's whatever Blizzard are doing.

The new Aviana's Feather is a glorified goblin glider. Instead of launching you up in the air, you need to find a place to slow fall from. You still have to traverse the terrain to find somewhere high up to jump off of and glide down.
As far as too much vs too littl convenience, that is done with trial and error. Over the years and the way people have used flight, Blizzard decided that is too much convenience. Now, they are adding things that gives convenience that seem to be taken from other classes. Things like the feather and multiple hearthstones and Dalaran ring from a mages toolkit. Toys that transform you into something for subterfuge mechanics like a rogues vanish to avoid certain pathing mobs.
Personally, I feel like they are adding too much when you think of having a hearthstone, class hall hearth, Dalaran ring, FP whistle, previous Dalaran items (Jaina's locket if it still works), to name some of them; however, there is still a difference between all of those and the fact that once used, if you have to go back because you forgot something, or a similar quest in the same area you forgot about, there is a CDR to those things opposed to mount up, fly away, remember and immediately turn around to pick it up with little to no consequence or affect.

[Spunt]

They should have sold it as the Legion, now having freaking spaceships, would shoot you out of the sky if you took off, with adding some lore to existing flightpath that make them immune to this effect (so it makes sense they still work, but not flying mount). Then, later on, you do a very complex series of quests to obtain an item that makes it harder for them to hit you or cloaks you somehow from said spaceships, so you won't get blown out of the sky.

Seems like a missed opportunity to actually have no flying makes sense from a lore point. They are too busy telling everyone they are wrong for playing with the camera zoomed to far out.

[Bun-Bun]

They are too busy telling everyone they are wrong for playing with the camera zoomed to far out.

Tin foil hat, I feel like the camera thing is a distraction away from flight.

[Connll]

They are too busy telling everyone they are wrong for playing with the camera zoomed to far out.

I got the impression that they are doing this in order to make harder to notice how the expansion area is small, specially if you compare with the others.

[Evilfish]

I got the impression that they are doing this in order to make harder to notice how the expansion area is small, specially if you compare with the others.

It's actually not that small. And WOD landmass was not small either. No, they are doing this out of some fucked up need to satisfy both parties involved in this dispute. Even if one of those parties was proven wrong without a doubt. Removing flying does not fix a god damned thing. Not one.

[Dhrizzle]

You mean like logging in on a fresh alt... and fully equipping them in Heirlooms? You mean like having 300% EXP potions?

Are you saying those are too much or too little convenience? Personally I only use heirlooms when it's content I've seen at least once before (ditto with flying for that matter) and have never used an XP potion. In fact I have to ditch heirlooms for WoD content because I'm terible at saving cash and haven't unlocked many pieces for >100 content.

I have to disagree... Riding to a location, then calling a taxi makes no sense whatsoever... and certainly from a "design standpoint". How, if yo think it's immersive to fight your way there, is it OK or justifiable to NOT fight your way back?

Okay then don't use the taxi-whistle at all :-)
The reason I find it a decent trade-off for people complaining about lack of convenience is usually when you finish a quest the path back is still clear, or you can dash out and carry on without having to worry about stopping to kill/collect/use something and getting mobbed, or you can just Hearthstone if it isn't on cool-down, so I can't see there being much content skipped by the whistle compared to how the game is now.

There is a difference between well designed progression and artificially delaying content.

Everything in WoW is artificial, the only difference between "artificial" and "well designed" is people who don't like something use the term "artificial" to make their subjective opinions sound like objective facts.

Without flight the content is still excessively gated as it is, for that reason I don't accept your argument. Is it possible to design content that flight doesn't ruin? Yes, they have proven that in the past.

How do you define excessively gated?

Yes Blizz have created content that works well with flight, Stormpeaks is almost universally lauded in this respect. Some of the TBC stuff was fun but quickly became gimmicky, exploring Vash'jir was great even though the questing sucked, Deepholme arguably worked well with flight. On the other hand flying over the supposedly threatening Scourge made Icecrown into a joke. Twilight Highlands, Uldum and Hyjal would all have worked better if they'd been properly designed for no flying and most of the dailies from flying zones were mindless chores to be done whilst watching TV, they were good gentle content if you needed the reward but not very compelling.

Put it this way, since flight has been added back to WoD I don't get to my goals any faster as they are still gated; I still have to do the content. But less tedium + shear enjoyment from flight is allowing me to play the game more than I was previously and enjoy MORE content than otherwise.

If you haven't been reaching goals any faster since flight has unlocked I assume you're only doing instanced content because everything out in the world has become much easier. Or, are you saying that flight doesn't make any difference because of daily/weekly lockouts? I don't think they'll be going anywhere because people will complain about being "forced" to grind content over and over to max their rewards as soon as possible, or they'll complain about burning through all the content in a few days because Blizz didn't put systems in to force them to slow down. Either way it doesn't seem to be a flying issue.

Just saw that Legion is going to have its own version of Aviana's Feather.

ROFL, no, it's toooooootally not like WoD. They toooooootally have learned their lesson.

And, by the way, I remember someone was talking about 'immersion'. Yeah, that is totally the reason they removed flying and added the feather.

What part of Blizz saying they liked how flight in WoD worked with Pathfinder and they'd be carrying it forward to Legion made you think it would be tooooooootally different?

And how do you determine that magic quantity of convenience when it's too much and good turns to bad??

Why, obviously, I am not sure why I am even asking. It's whatever Blizzard are doing.

Obviously it depends on the content. Dungeons and dailies in MoP were too easy/convenient to complete but the rep grind was too tedious/inconvenient for my taste. I found the way garrisons provide all the ore you need to be too convenient but the time gating of profession building to be a massive ball-ache, particularly when there's lots of stuff I only want for transmog purposes. I like that gathering in Legion will be more like Vanilla, but I'm not too happy about Blood of Sargeras being bind-on-pickup as my miner/engineer usually does all the gathering for my blacksmith/jewelcrafter.

[Maudib]

Are you saying those are too much or too little convenience? Personally I only use heirlooms when it's content I've seen at least once before (ditto with flying for that matter) and have never used an XP potion. In fact I have to ditch heirlooms for WoD content because I'm terible at saving cash and haven't unlocked many pieces for >100 content.

Okay then don't use the taxi-whistle at all :-)
The reason I find it a decent trade-off for people complaining about lack of convenience is usually when you finish a quest the path back is still clear, or you can dash out and carry on without having to worry about stopping to kill/collect/use something and getting mobbed, or you can just Hearthstone if it isn't on cool-down, so I can't see there being much content skipped by the whistle compared to how the game is now.

SWeet! So you do agree that we can just choose to not use features that are in game.. like you choosing not to wear heirlooms... apparently it doesn;t bother you that others do.

You can also just not fly... and let those that want to... do so.

I knew you were a rational, good guy!

[AzazeltheRuthless]

SWeet! So you do agree that we can just choose to not use features that are in game.. like you choosing not to wear heirlooms... apparently it doesn;t bother you that others do.

You can also just not fly... and let those that want to... do so.

I knew you were a rational, good guy!

Actually, if you're are using this as an example. Heirloom for level 100 content didn't come around until 6.1 or 6.2 just like flying. So exactly the same type of things here, they give you an ability to make the game easier and allow you to skip content, levels alts faster, and etc.....After you've earned it. Heirlooms - using gold to buy it. Flying - getting the achievement....tada same thing.

[Deleted]

SWeet! So you do agree that we can just choose to not use features that are in game.. like you choosing not to wear heirlooms... apparently it doesn;t bother you that others do.

You can also just not fly... and let those that want to... do so.

How many more times will we see this stupid argument?

[Maudib]

How many more times will we see this stupid argument?

Until you admit it's true... that you can choose to not fly and leave the rest of us alone.

[Bun-Bun]

Everything in WoW is artificial, the only difference between "artificial" and "well designed" is people who don't like something use the term "artificial" to make their subjective opinions sound like objective facts.

Oh stop it with the opinion vs facts. Everything said on these forums is subjective opinion, unless quoting something from official sources, and you know it.

Well designed progression doesn't need to be delayed any longer than necessary. BC and WotLK didn't have these issues.

WotLK I never felt my immersion broke when I couldn't do anymore progress towards something in a day. It was backed by lore or was done in a non excessive way that it wasn't jarring.

Garrisons; I can only click this button once per day. Huh?

- - - Updated - - -

How do you define excessively gated?

Content that is gated to take a month or more of playing everyday for multiple hours or with little reward. Garrisons and Tanaan are prime subjects of this. Everything was gated, you couldn't just enjoy anything for what it was because you had to do it over and over and over and over with nothing ever changing. It was/is extremely boring.

Basically if it feels like content is being gated to hide the fact there is a lack of content... its excessively gated/poorly designed.


- - - Updated - - -

Either way it doesn't seem to be a flying issue.

Exactly! Flying isn't the issue. Gating content is a separate topic that isn't affected by flight.

But lack of flight makes a lot of the content tedious and removes my desire to play. It's an MMO, things need to be gated to keep people playing otherwise the game becomes empty and that breaks the entire concept of the game. Flight isn't in determent to that goal. After I do it once I want to be able to continue on efficiently and I want to play the game the way I want to play it.

I already have to log in everyday to do something for weeks (or every few days for months), why does it have to be tedious and or take 2+ hours?

- - - Updated - - -

What part of Blizz saying they liked how flight in WoD worked with Pathfinder and they'd be carrying it forward to Legion made you think it would be tooooooootally different?

He wasn't even talking about pathfinder... and was probably being sarcastic.

That said, the developers would have you believe they have been working on making the world less tedious and improving things to work without flight. Nothing has be shown to prove they have learned anything from WoD in this regard.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes Blizz have created content that works well with flight, Stormpeaks is almost universally lauded in this respect. Some of the TBC stuff was fun but quickly became gimmicky, exploring Vash'jir was great even though the questing sucked, Deepholme arguably worked well with flight. On the other hand flying over the supposedly threatening Scourge made Icecrown into a joke. Twilight Highlands, Uldum and Hyjal would all have worked better if they'd been properly designed for no flying and most of the dailies from flying zones were mindless chores to be done whilst watching TV, they were good gentle content if you needed the reward but not very compelling.

See and I disagree with you. Twilight Highlands, Uldum, and Hyjal I did mostly on the ground while questing. I only flew when a quest took me from one end of the zone to another. I chose to experience it from the ground because that's what I wanted to do. And anyone who cares about that sort of thing will. So in that scenario all removing flight does is force those that don't care to do it from the ground where they wont enjoy it anyway. Why does everyone HAVE to do the content EXACTLY as the designer wants? subs are subs who cares?

And I thought ICC was a very well designed zone. It was captivating and very immersive. Flight didn't take away from it at all for me.

[Dhrizzle]

Oh stop it with the opinion vs facts. Everything said on these forums is subjective opinion, unless quoting something from official sources, and you know it.

Then why use terms like "artificial" or "well designed" if what you really mean is "I don't/do like this thing?"

Well designed progression doesn't need to be delayed any longer than necessary. BC and WotLK didn't have these issues.

WotLK I never felt my immersion broke when I couldn't do anymore progress towards something in a day. It was backed by lore or was done in a non excessive way that it wasn't jarring.

Garrisons; I can only click this button once per day. Huh?

WotLK and TBC both had dailies for rep that couldn't be done more than once per day, they also restricted you to only doing each heroic once per day and each raid once per week. None of that was explained by lore, it was just "artificial" gating to make sure you couldn't complete all the content too quickly.

Content that is gated to take a month or more of playing everyday for multiple hours or with little reward. Garrisons and Tanaan are prime subjects of this. Everything was gated, you couldn't just enjoy anything for what it was because you had to do it over and over and over and over with nothing ever changing. It was/is extremely boring.

Basically if it feels like content is being gated to hide the fact there is a lack of content... its excessively gated/poorly designed.

So basically dungeons, raids, daily quests, rep grinds...pretty much all of WoW's PvE in all the expansions?

Exactly! Flying isn't the issue. Gating content is a separate topic that isn't affected by flight.

But lack of flight makes a lot of the content tedious and removes my desire to play. It's an MMO, things need to be gated to keep people playing otherwise the game becomes empty and that breaks the entire concept of the game. Flight isn't in determent to that goal. After I do it once I want to be able to continue on efficiently and I want to play the game the way I want to play it.

I already have to log in everyday to do something for weeks (or every few days for months), why does it have to be tedious and or take 2+ hours?

I had pretty much the exact opposite problem. Sure I didn't mind doing some daily grinds if it would help me raiding (head+shoulder enchants plus a bit of spare gold usually) but once I quit raiding daily quests designed around flight didn't provide enough entertainment to keep me interested. WoD's content may have lacked in rewards but it was more enjoyable to complete.

He wasn't even talking about pathfinder... and was probably being sarcastic.

That said, the developers would have you believe they have been working on making the world less tedious and improving things to work without flight. Nothing has be shown to prove they have learned anything from WoD in this regard.

See and I disagree with you. Twilight Highlands, Uldum, and Hyjal I did mostly on the ground while questing. I only flew when a quest took me from one end of the zone to another. I chose to experience it from the ground because that's what I wanted to do. And anyone who cares about that sort of thing will. So in that scenario all removing flight does is force those that don't care to do it from the ground where they wont enjoy it anyway. Why does everyone HAVE to do the content EXACTLY as the designer wants? subs are subs who cares?

And I thought ICC was a very well designed zone. It was captivating and very immersive. Flight didn't take away from it at all for me.

That's what I did with most of those Cata zones too, but it was painfully obvious from the way the zone was laid out that they didn't expect people to tackle it from the ground, and if they had I doubt many gamers would abandon such a powerful tool as flight in order to play the intended way.

Icecrown I found completely underwhelming. The Scourge and the Lich King already felt like a B-plot compared to the excellent development of the Titans and Ulduar. Arthas had already been undermined as a threat by his constantly appearing and being thwarted, so when we made it to Icecrown and were basically flying above the action picking our targets the idea of danger became a joke.

[Bun-Bun]

Then why use terms like "artificial" or "well designed" if what you really mean is "I don't/do like this thing?"

Have you seen the episode of the good wife where the judge makes the layers start every sentence with "In my opinion"? That's why.

Saying well designed doesn't automatically make it a "fact".

- - - Updated - - -

WotLK and TBC both had dailies for rep that couldn't be done more than once per day, they also restricted you to only doing each heroic once per day and each raid once per week. None of that was explained by lore, it was just "artificial" gating to make sure you couldn't complete all the content too quickly.

A lot of the gating was explained by lore, there was progression through most of the daily quests/hubs. And like I also said, the rest wasn't done in a way that it felt jarring. Gating roics/raids is as much as preventing people from burning out then elongating content. Not once during BC or WotLK did I feel like content was been drawn out far too long or gated in a way that it pulled me from my immersion. Plus there was lots to do everyday and had choice of what to do. WoD gave very few options. Each area had its own story and if I didn't feel like doing one on a particular day then I didn't, I went and did something else. WoD you did the daily availible to you or you didn't progress.

- - - Updated - - -

So basically dungeons, raids, daily quests, rep grinds...pretty much all of WoW's PvE in all the expansions?

No, like I said, BC and WotLK didn't suffer from those issues.

And raids are different as that is for a challenge. You work with a team of people to progress. Everything outside of raids is not challenging.

- - - Updated - - -

I had pretty much the exact opposite problem. Sure I didn't mind doing some daily grinds if it would help me raiding (head+shoulder enchants plus a bit of spare gold usually) but once I quit raiding daily quests designed around flight didn't provide enough entertainment to keep me interested. WoD's content may have lacked in rewards but it was more enjoyable to complete.

I don't understand how you can say flight content was unappealing yet say WoD content was more enjoyable. There's nothing there to enjoy.

- - - Updated - - -

I doubt many gamers would abandon such a powerful tool as flight in order to play the intended way.

You gave your opinion but didn't answer the question. Why is this a problem? The gamers who care will play that way. Why do gamers NEED to play a certain way? Why does the content NEED to be consume in a specific way? Everyone is different and everyone enjoys things differently. Forcing gamers to one perspective will only alienate them.

[wing5wong]

WotLK I never felt my immersion broke when I couldn't do anymore progress towards something in a day. It was backed by lore or was done in a non excessive way that it wasn't jarring.

Garrisons; I can only click this button once per day. Huh?

Sorry, you've already saved 5 villagers - no more!
In both WoD and BC you were esentially stopped once you had completed your daily quests. no more progression that day.
To say there is no lore involved and that the quests and progression were excessive in both WoD and Legion is a blatant lie.

Content that is gated to take a month or more of playing everyday for multiple hours or with little reward. Garrisons and Tanaan are prime subjects of this. Everything was gated, you couldn't just enjoy anything for what it was because you had to do it over and over and over and over with nothing ever changing. It was/is extremely boring.

Basically if it feels like content is being gated to hide the fact there is a lack of content... its excessively gated/poorly designed.

Like MoP dailies? Like BC? Like in wrath? Literally every aspect of progression in those expansions was time gated.

That said, the developers would have you believe they have been working on making the world less tedious and improving things to work without flight. Nothing has be shown to prove they have learned anything from WoD in this regard.

Everything to do with progression and world quests has been improved on in legion. there is ALWAYS a reason to be in the world, and there is ALWAYS something to be gained by doing ANYTHING (quests, professions, dungeons...)

all removing flight does is force those that don't care to do it from the ground where they wont enjoy it anyway. Why does everyone HAVE to do the content EXACTLY as the designer wants? subs are subs who cares?

Because flight offers a distinct advantage of travelling at 310% speed, with no negative.
If flight was in at 60%, but ground mounts allowed 100% then you have a choice.
Water strider suffers a little here by offering a distinct advantage, but at least its use is limited in terms of where its advantages is actually utilised

- - - Updated - - -

You gave your opinion but didn't answer the question. Why is this a problem? The gamers who care will play that way. Why do gamers NEED to play a certain way? Why does the content NEED to be consume in a specific way? Everyone is different and everyone enjoys things differently. Forcing gamers to one perspective will only alienate them.

Because you shouldnt have to choose to be disadvantaged to experience content in the way it was developed.
Reverse the mount speeds. 310 ground, 100% air. Problem?