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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    My suggestion is one way of solving that problem, and not necessarily even the right or necessarily best solution, you might note that I pointed this out before making it. However, it remains one possibility to do so.
    And all I was pointing out is that I (like a lot of people) prefer the current design to your "improved" one, but I am open to other ways of fixing this "problem" (such as moving the effect from FS to BT) however as the class is balanced around the existence of this "problem" the would then have to be some kind of DPS nerf to avoid the change becoming a DPS buff

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    I'm tired of going in circles
    Well if you hadn't blocked Bazz simply for disagreeing with your opinion you wouldn't have missed him blow your argument out of the water a few posts back >.>


    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    this thread has been derailed long enough.
    Don't worry, we won;t hold it against you.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    I don't want to bang on about this too much, but the simple fact that someone can dispute your idea with an opinion shows that the problems are subjective in nature, your percieved value of the issue is different to others, and infact some see a percieved negative effect attached to your solution to the problem.
    That's actually not true at all. Disagreeing with a statement does not make it subjective. People argue that the earth is flat, when it is objectively a spheroid. People can dispute any-fucking-thing in the world. That's like, 80% of the Internet. In fact, I don't necessarily agree with Archi's proposed solution - it makes sense to me, but i kind of like the idea of a dedicated filler ability that just smacks for damage with nothing else (kinda like old HS, may it rest in peace). And I even stated a counter proposal, which he doesn't like as much as his own idea, and that's fine. Both ideas exist and the world keeps on spinning.

    The problem i see is that people are arguing that his view is "subjective" but what's really at play are two things. His OP had two elements: premise and conclusion. His premise consisted of quantifiable evidence showing that in multiple styles of play, FS is marginalized in a way that hinders a major part of its functionality (the BT buff). That premise is objective: the numbers clearly show that FS is underused for what it does, which is enabling a major part of Fury's gameplay through the BT buff. Now, his conclusion is a proposal on how to solve the problem. That proposal is also objective, it would indeed solve the problem. The one subjective element is that Archi prefers his proposed solution over others that have been presented.

    That's it. That's the ONLY subjective part of his argument. If you want to argue against that, then we'll be here all year. Because solution 1 vs solution 2 is 100% subjective, especially since they are hypothetical concepts that cannot be tested. Now, some evidence can be presented as to why one is better than the other, but ultimately those are opinions. But that hasn't been happening. Instead, the challenge has been made that his premise is subjective. Yet no one can dispute the numbers that he presented. Nor has anyone provided an argument or analysis that shows his logic is faulty. Do that, and you might have a point. Until then, however, all I've seen is a bunch of people waving their dicks around and missing numerous points because of said dick-waving.

    Archi can be an arrogant prick. Everyone knows it, including him. But that doesn't mean he's not right (at least in this instance). If you want to prove him wrong, prove that his argument is flawed - don't just say "You don't like it, but i do" because that's fucking meaningless. The rest of us are sick of this inane argument (well i am at least). Either attack his logic or move on to another thread already.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Murlocbait View Post
    That's actually not true at all. Disagreeing with a statement does not make it subjective. People argue that the earth is flat, when it is objectively a spheroid.
    But this is something that can be measured in an objective manner and those people disagreeing are choosing to not believe that the measurement exists, like many of the science vs religious debates, that is a situation of ignorance rather than a disagreement over preference.

    it's not comparable to a situation where you're comparing preference and fun. Furious Slash not being used much can be an intentional design and it can also be a design that can be preferred. The problems he had described are real ones, but because those problems may not seem to be a big deal to some or may even result in a gameplay that people enjoy they can never be measured in an objective manner.

    It's like me saying I feel a car drives poorly and having solutions to improve that, but then discovering my improvements are actually seen in a negative light by others, and that the "poor" handling could even be considered a design choice going in, for a particular reason. However real or effective my solutions are, the problem to begin with is something I've identified through a personal bias of expectation.


    Edit : To sum up my point, Archi told me that my issues were not real and that I simply didn't know what I was talking about, that my issues were just a sum of "I dont like this", and he's right they are purely subjective observations of my percieved issues with the spec. But I also pointed out with pretty solid reasoning that his was the same and no different, which he claimed was "bullshit" and then proceeded to don himself King Archi the one and only master of theorycrafting with his superiority posting.

    There is no need to bring ego into the discussion, and constantly finding reasons to qualify your posts by putting others down is a horrible way of going about life. I don't always disagree with Archi, but when I or others do he has a strong habbit of getting his ego more involved than it should be.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2016-07-01 at 01:16 AM.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    To sum up my point, Archi told me that my issues were not real and that I simply didn't know what I was talking about, that my issues were just a sum of "I dont like this", and he's right they are purely subjective observations of my percieved issues with the spec. But I also pointed out with pretty solid reasoning that his was the same and no different, which he claimed was "bullshit" and then proceeded to don himself King Archi the one and only master of theorycrafting with his superiority posting.

    There is no need to bring ego into the discussion, and constantly finding reasons to qualify your posts by putting others down is a horrible way of going about life. I don't always disagree with Archi, but when I or others do he has a strong habbit of getting his ego more involved than it should be.
    Actually I only told you that you were wrong, and only did so twice.
    • The first was when you said "fury's self healing doesn't make up for it's increased damage taken"
    It's not supposed to. The increased health is supposed to make up for that. The self healing is only meant to counteract the resulting healing-sponge effect and to add sustain.
    • Second is when you said that your log with more FS doing more damage than my log with less FS means FS is better.
    Because it's completely misleading, if not flat out wrong. First of all, our gearsets were much different, second our raid comp was different, third our strategies were different, finally and most importantly, they were all wipes. There's no way in which the two logs are even remotely comparable from a purely damage perspective.

    I also never said "I'm a better theorycrafter than you", "donned my superiority cap" or anything other such inanity. You took a single comment out of context and used it as a pretext for attack.
    You think that because you don't understand the impact it has on balance. Unfortunately it would take another thread entirely to explain that to you.
    You took that as: "I won't explain my position and am just going to call you stupid".
    When it was meant as: "you're not accounting for the impact it has on balancing, ie: the severe devaluation of stats such as Mastery and its impact on the Execute phase, and getting into that discussion would become so long that it would be a different thread entirely, further derailing this one".

    You want to call that egotistical, fine, I don't really care; but I responded to all of your posts in an effort to explain my point of view and why my findings were important. Your first three posts(1)(2)(3) all started with belittling the issue at hand; claiming one or another issue was more important, even though two of the issues you raised were actually addressed in my topic, and then proceeded to take all of my responses in the most negative way possible, using them as a pretext to attack me rather than address the topic (that's a fallacy by the way). I'd also point out that this is a reoccurring theme between you and I, having not been the first thread you've derailed by finding a reason to attack me over something trivial.

    Even after I repeatedly attempted to drop the subject you continued to hurl insults and antagonize.. what do you expect if not someone to say fuck it and tell you off? If you don't care for me when I'm being civil, I don't exactly have anything to lose by being rude.

  5. #145
    To be honest Archi I thought you had blocked me, so to be quite frank I'd considered the discussion between you and I over. We're never going to agree on the matter so lets just end it here and go our separate ways on the topic. At this point we are both just bickering aimlessly for the most part and it's not exactly taking the subject topic in the best direction.

    All the best.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    To be honest Archi I thought you had blocked me, so to be quite frank I'd considered the discussion between you and I over. We're never going to agree on the matter so lets just end it here and go our separate ways on the topic. At this point we are both just bickering aimlessly for the most part and it's not exactly taking the subject topic in the best direction.

    All the best.
    Ignoring on MMO-C is not blocking; it doesn't remove your posts, it just hides them and does not mark a thread as having a new post when you post in it. I had no intention on leaving you on ignore, as you do in fact have good things to say when you make comments in other threads, it's only when you start butting heads with someone that you become stubborn and argumentative (I do as well), I simply wanted to be done for the night and not give myself an excuse to re-engage.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murlocbait View Post
    That's actually not true at all. Disagreeing with a statement does not make it subjective. People argue that the earth is flat, when it is objectively a spheroid.
    Nobody is disagreeing with what he is saying about the mechanics/etc, it's his personal opinions people are calling subjective. I.E to keep with the Earth analogy this thread basically consists of:

    "The Earth is a sphere, I think that's a problem, my solution to this problem is to make it a cube!".

    "I'm not so sure that's a problem, I personally prefer it as a sphere, can't we keep it a sphere or try something else?".

    "You're disagreeing with me which means you either didn't read what I said or don't understand it, the Earth is a sphere! this is a fact! why can't you grasp this? I don't like or dislike it being a sphere but the facts are it's definitely a problem and your argument is just your opinion, please learn about mechanics before talking, I'm right and you're wrong, **** you".

  8. #148
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    i think that the buff that furious slash provides should actually be like the tooltip says till your next BT crits

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    It's like me saying I feel a car drives poorly and having solutions to improve that, but then discovering my improvements are actually seen in a negative light by others, and that the "poor" handling could even be considered a design choice going in, for a particular reason. However real or effective my solutions are, the problem to begin with is something I've identified through a personal bias of expectation.
    This is pretty much the arguments here in a nutshell. I have a friend who's sports car has super low/hard suspension to make it corner fast, personally I would prefer if it were more comfortable, but that doesn't make his car's design is flawed it just means I and many others like different things to my friend and the other people who bought that car.
    Last edited by caervek; 2016-07-01 at 02:19 AM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by MORGATH99 View Post
    i think that the buff that furious slash provides should actually be like the tooltip says till your next BT crits
    It is, it is not consumed if BT doesn't crit. However, the issue is that it's quite easy for enough time to go by before your next Furious Slash/Bloodthirst for the buff to fall off before it is either refreshed or consumed. Part of this is due to the relatively low chance to crit even with <3 stacks of Taste for Blood, another part is due to the low frequency of use of Furious Slash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Nobody is disagreeing with what he is saying about the mechanics/etc, it's his personal opinions people are calling subjective. I.E to keep with the Earth analogy this thread basically consists of:

    "The Earth is a sphere, I think that's a problem, my solution to this problem is to make it a cube!".

    "I'm not so sure that's a problem, I personally prefer it as a sphere, can't we keep it a sphere or try something else?".

    "You're disagreeing with me which means you either didn't read what I said or don't understand it, the Earth is a sphere! this is a fact! why can't you grasp this? I don't like or dislike it being a sphere but the facts are it's definitely a problem and your argument is just your opinion, please learn about mechanics before talking, I'm right and you're wrong, **** you".
    That's a terrible analogy and does not reflect the course of conversation whatsoever. Stop being antagonistic and drop it for fucks sake.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    <3 stacks of Taste for Blood
    I also <3 stacks of Taste for Blood.

  12. #152
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    - - - Updated - - -

    [QUOTE=Archimtiros;41159373]It is, it is not consumed if BT doesn't crit. However, the issue is that it's quite easy for enough time to go by before your next Furious Slash/Bloodthirst for the buff to fall off before it is either refreshed or consumed. Part of this is due to the relatively low chance to crit even with <3 stacks of Taste for Blood, another part is due to the low frequency of use of Furious Slash.

    it is not consumed on beta ? cause im testing it right now on ptr and the buff last 7 secs and when its gone my bt doesnt have the crit chance increased even if i got the buff to 6 stacks so i thinks its not " till bt crits " just a timed buff

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Agromat View Post
    I also <3 stacks of Taste for Blood.
    I especially love the bug in the AMR simulator which causes Taste for Blood stacks to not be consumed when BT crits!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MORGATH99 View Post
    it is not consumed on beta ? cause im testing it right now on ptr and the buff last 7 secs and when its gone my bt doesnt have the crit chance increased even if i got the buff to 6 stacks so i thinks its not " till bt crits " just a timed buff
    Either you're misunderstanding me, or I'm misunderstanding you.

    Consumed means the buff fades. Right now on the Beta/PTR if you crit with Bloodthirst, the buff goes away. If you do not crit, the buff stays (is not consumed) until you either crit, or its duration reaches 0.

    There is also a bug, in which if you Meat Cleave Bloodthirst and the primary target does not crit, but other targets are crit, you will not become Enraged, but your stacks of Taste for Blood will be consumed.

  14. #154
    Stood in the Fire Leyl's Avatar
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    I'm just gonna leave this here.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...AhC9a#fight=24

    Thanks peace.
    #SargerasIsComingToSaveUs

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Indeed, IMO Fury on Beta/PTR is the best it's been since at least WotLK and the OP's changes would hurt that (Inner Rage is awesome). Of course that's just my opinion based on what I like, but that's all this thread is, opinions based on what people like.
    This is where everything you have said just became completely invalidated. Bro, did you even play Fury during Wrath or are you pretending to be cool? How was Wrath Fury anything other than mindless Heroic Strike spam while hitting BT and WW on cooldown. Cleave on aoe fights. Oh wow, complex rotation, much skill needed! Get out of here, man. IT'S BRAKKIN TIME.

    Arch, who are all these random scrubs? I leave for one expansion and suddenly every warrior thinks they're a goddamn expert on the class. Furious Strike == Wild Strike. Wild Strike == garbage. How is that so hard to understand?

    And even with godawful Wildstrike, the best Fury has EVER been, in terms of fluid rotation, damage output and sheer joy with a decent skillcap that rewarded great players was Siege. Anything they can do to go back to that kind of rotation would be amazing.

    Tl;dr: Furious Strike is garbage, it sounds like my warrior is slapping his thigh with a rotting fish, it's not visually appealing and it makes our rotation feel awful.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Leyl View Post
    I'm just gonna leave this here.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...AhC9a#fight=24

    Thanks peace.
    That is completely useless. Seriously, what point are you trying to make? I'm not being a dick, i'm legitimately curious.
    Edit to avoid double post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    But this is something that can be measured in an objective manner...
    This is my problem with how I've seen you argue in this thread. That has NOTHING to do with what I posted. I posted a counter to your statement that being able to dispute something (dispute just means argue btw, not disprove) means that it is inherently subjective. That's not true. I made that example to demonstrate how it is untrue. Rather than address what I referred to, however, you argued with my example, which was never meant to be an analogy for this whole debate. I wasn't using that to make a point about subjective vs objective - just to point out that what you said was wrong.

    Rather than discuss my point, however, you made it a new discussion and argued about that. That's not how constructive debates work.
    Last edited by Murlocbait; 2016-07-01 at 04:37 AM.

  17. #157
    Legendary! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F1reheart View Post
    That site is still up? How embarrassing. FYI: Heroic Strike has been removed for roughly the same amount of time that Heroic Strike was in the game and we lost the third weapon slot. Let it go.

    OT: IMO If you don't like the class direction, and the devs clearly won't listen, leave (or just don't use it a la Jesse Cox).
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
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  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    That site is still up? How embarrassing. FYI: Heroic Strike has been removed for roughly the same amount of time that Heroic Strike was in the game
    FYI: Heroic Strike was added in November 2004 (technically before, but that's the launch date of WoW), and removed in November of 2014. It is now June 2016. Simple math tells you that it was in the game for 10 years and has been gone for 1.5.


    Math, how does it work?

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    FYI: Heroic Strike was added in November 2004 (technically before, but that's the launch date of WoW), and removed in November of 2014. It is now June 2016. Simple math tells you that it was in the game for 10 years and has been gone for 1.5.
    And technically, it's still in the game. It's just Prot only.

  20. #160
    I don't see how something that controls BT's crit buff being pushed out of the rotation isn't objectively an issue, especially during Execute phase where, since it's pushed out almost completely, BT has absolutely no way to have a better chance at critting. If FS was nothing but filler and didn't have TfB (and Frenzy if you talent that), this wouldn't be an issue at all. Simple filler being pushed out for better things is perfectly fine. And for the record, I hate Furious Slash and would love to see it go away or simply become filler. That's completely subjective.

    And it's not really subjective at all to say that FS being pushed out devaluing our mastery due to vastly reduced Enrage uptime during Execute phases is also an issue. Enrage, as it stands, will likely have lower uptime due to FS being pushed out. Again, something being pushed out is fine, but one of the core mechanics of our spec and its mastery being reduced drastically in only 20% of a fight is 100% objectively an issue. We need consistent ways to become Enraged in ALL phases of a fight, and as it stands currently, FS doesn't do that. That's objectively an issue, and it's something that has been an almost unanimous piece of feedback for all of beta and certainly a good deal of alpha.

    It would be nice if more was tied to BT itself, like its crit chance and probably Odyn's Champion since sub 20%, you really don't have any way to proc that minus talenting Massacre, but that's me.

    But objectively? Yeah, FS is an issue. There's nothing subjective about that.

    Math, how does it work?
    As I get farther and farther into math (woo woo advanced analysis and linear this fall), I forget simple things. If there aren't letters in my math, I don't remember how to do any of it.

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