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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    Yes and that leader can be the interested player. You can do Archimonde heroic right now on a freshly dinged character by only inviting players. You can even say nothing at all to them if you do the inviting optimally.
    That doesn't matter for my idea though.

  2. #182
    Anymore in LFR ill engage hardmode. for instance, at emporer in highmaul, ill just pull the boss with the rest of the adds. hasnt really been an issu3e, but it makes things a little interesting for the faceroll mode.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    I would like your thoughts, as I am generally curious, and am trying to understand LFR. So far my only understanding is that you guys hate forming groups (based on my previous thread where I asked why LFR players hate normal)
    I would like to see LFR stick around for the following reasons:

    1. You can't remove content without replacing it with something. If you consider that each raid wing is similar to a larger scale version of a new dungeon (i.e. it has a new instanced area with 3-4 bosses in it and drops slightly better gear), it would take a lot of new dungeons to replace that.
    2. It takes a long time for a normal-mode PUG raid to form. The whole time, since you are sitting in a raid group, you can't quest or do hardly anything productive.
    3. Normal-mode raids require a good leader...something most LFR players are not willing/able/interested to do.
    4. If you are on-call like me, many times you have to leave a raid immediately for an emergency. It's fine in LFR, but normal-mode raid leaders tend to remember stuff like that and don't always want to invite you back later. It's a huge inconvenience for everyone.
    5. I like using personal loot. I don't like loot drama. LFR is about the only place you can still use personal loot without gimping the raid.

    Now if Blizzard was actually willing to replace LFR with the 12-15 new dungeons it would take to replace the content lost for non-raiders, that would be amazing. I just can't personally see Blizzard making that decision.

    Furthermore, LFR still has some problems that bug me:
    1. It's still really exploitable. It's to bad Blizzard can't find a way to reward people in LFR for their individual performance.
    2. Instead of bosses in LFR having 12 abilities that are all so nerfed down that none of them matter, it would be nice if boss abilities were pruned to ~4 that actually mattered and could kill you. I don't think it's unreasonable for LFR to have at least the same difficulty as heroic dungeons.
    Last edited by Golden; 2016-06-30 at 04:03 PM.

  4. #184
    That is my main issue, most pro left LFR players think that the heroic / mythic raid players are trying to force them to play their way. The reality is that the heroic / mythic raid players are being force into a empty shell of content that is LFR to get max Valor to be competitive at our raiding level.

    I personally dont want anyone to be forced into anything, but when im forced to do LFR to maximize my Valor so I can stay competitive in my guild, I would like that content im FORCED into to be fleshed out and a somewhat enjoyable experience. Right now it is not that.

  5. #185
    The Lightbringer Sanguinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyE View Post
    That is my main issue, most pro left LFR players think that the heroic / mythic raid players are trying to force them to play their way. The reality is that the heroic / mythic raid players are being force into a empty shell of content that is LFR to get max Valor to be competitive at our raiding level.

    I personally dont want anyone to be forced into anything, but when im forced to do LFR to maximize my Valor so I can stay competitive in my guild, I would like that content im FORCED into to be fleshed out and a somewhat enjoyable experience. Right now it is not that.
    Here's the thing though, you're NOT forced.

    It's such a ridiculous argument. Every. Single. Time.

  6. #186
    I am Murloc! dacoolist's Avatar
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    I pride myself of being part of mmo-c.com and lfr - I also don't TYPICALLY get wipes when I'm healing either. So if you see a boss with 10 stacks of determination - I sure asf wasn't healing you m8 <3

    Do I think most mmo-c players are LFR raiders: No. Besides JLock, I think most people that come to THIS site are typically running Normal or higher. I ran LFR btw for the sole fact that it was easy, and it got me my legendary without even having to break a sweat.

  7. #187
    Herald of the Titans Sylreick's Avatar
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    LFR is the "story mode", meaning no chance of death, certain success, easily accessible content for people budgeting their time. It's existence is to justify making raids raids and not say mythic 5 mans. Most of the WoW community can get in and see the story play out, experience the bosses, and have something to do to break the daily chores outside of 5 man dungeons.

    I personally don't enjoy it, but it is the best option for gearing alts or swapping mains midway through an expansion. It is not a challenge, sure, but it isn't designed to be. This is why I like the idea of mythic and mythic+ 5 mans. If you want a challenge and gear progression you can run those. If you want to see the raids, but either can't get into/start a pug or have a guild to run with, then LFR fits the bill.

    If I were to guess at the underlying reason why so many people refuse to move on into higher difficulties, it's because of the toxic attitude they perceive from players at that level and the restrictive nature of the pugging scene. They see it, and feel the drama oozing off of the groups and want none of that stress or hassle. Maybe if the raiders were more accepting/friendly it would be different, as it is in FFXIV, but WoW's community is corrupted.
    "Believing something is not an accomplishment. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because “strength of belief” is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. Listen to any “die-hard” conservative or liberal talk about their deepest beliefs and you are listening to somebody who will never hear what you say on any matter that matters to them — unless you believe the same. Wherever there is a belief, there is a closed door."

  8. #188
    ofc not, the average mmo-champ user is not the average wow player

    the average mmo-champ user is more interested in the game, and is willing / interested in the game enough to sign up for a profile on a wow-dedicated web site..

    mmo-champ users are on average better at the game, spends more time playing the game, have more gold in game, and generally just care more about the game than wow players on average.
    I've no idea what to write here.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylreick View Post
    LFR is the "story mode", meaning no chance of death
    It's so painfully obvious that someone hasn't stepped in LFR lately when they spew nonsense like this. Archimonde is still a tough enough fight to knock an LFR group around a time or two before they finally take him down, and there are a few fights in HFC that can easily wipe a group if they happen to have some spots filled by the assholes that clog LFR threads bragging about how LFR is boring so they just go AFK.

    Yes, there are some bosses that are pretty damn easy, but not every boss is like this. Especially in HFC.

    EDIT: "If I were to guess at the underlying reason why so many people refuse to move on into higher difficulties..."

    You are partially right, but time is a far larger reason. A lot of players who used to have the long stretches of time to devote to raiding simply don't have that anymore. I can play a lot in a week, but not for big stretches at once. This kills any desire I have to do regular raids, and it isn't fair to other raiders if I have to AFK or drop from a raid unexpectedly. So my outlet, my endgame, is LFR. In WoD, I got virtually nothing for doing it, so once I finished the legendary I had no reason to ever come back. In MoP, it was worth doing for decent looking gear, which I'm happy to hear might be returning in Legion.
    Last edited by DFu4ever; 2016-06-30 at 07:50 PM.

  10. #190
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Frakchaw View Post
    Here's the thing though, you're NOT forced.

    It's such a ridiculous argument. Every. Single. Time.
    In contrast, your argument is extremely offensive, not only because it's rude but mainly because it's totally wrong while it is rude. You have to understand there is not only black and white in this world. That means there is not only in this case "I love raiding NO MATTER WHAT even if I have to farm valor" or "I hate raiding NO MATTER WHAT when I have to farm valor".

    In practice, some people are WILLING to go through some pain in order to be optimal. Now, that pain has a limit for some players because not everyone is Serenity. So, what most people are saying is that yes, we could go through some pain in order to be optimal, but let's limit it a bit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    For the record I don't find the LFR valor farming that painful. In fact, I don't find LFR that painful when it has rewards like that. It's even funny sometimes to test a rotation on the lootbags.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    So, what most people are saying is that yes, we could go through some pain in order to be optimal, but let's limit it a bit.
    You realize that argument would justify a counter argument stating that the existence of mythic raids makes me want to play the game too much, so mythic raids should be taken out of the game. If that sounds absurd, then now you know how those who appreciate LFR feel when high level raiders want LFR drops nerfed because they feel compelled to get them.

  12. #192
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by DFu4ever View Post
    You realize that argument would justify a counter argument stating that the existence of mythic raids makes me want to play the game too much, so mythic raids should be taken out of the game.
    Yes, and I'd be fine with that view if someone had it, even if I don't. Besides, I find the LFR hate quite exaggerated. I personally don't find them excessive and I even liked getting some valor with them since it's fun testing rotations on the lootbags instead of on the dummies.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    I would like to see LFR stick around for the following reasons:

    1. You can't remove content without replacing it with something. If you consider that each raid wing is similar to a larger scale version of a new dungeon (i.e. it has a new instanced area with 3-4 bosses in it and drops slightly better gear), it would take a lot of new dungeons to replace that.
    2. It takes a long time for a normal-mode PUG raid to form. The whole time, since you are sitting in a raid group, you can't quest or do hardly anything productive.
    3. Normal-mode raids require a good leader...something most LFR players are not willing/able/interested to do.
    4. If you are on-call like me, many times you have to leave a raid immediately for an emergency. It's fine in LFR, but normal-mode raid leaders tend to remember stuff like that and don't always want to invite you back later. It's a huge inconvenience for everyone.
    5. I like using personal loot. I don't like loot drama. LFR is about the only place you can still use personal loot without gimping the raid.

    Now if Blizzard was actually willing to replace LFR with the 12-15 new dungeons it would take to replace the content lost for non-raiders, that would be amazing. I just can't personally see Blizzard making that decision.

    Furthermore, LFR still has some problems that bug me:
    1. It's still really exploitable. It's to bad Blizzard can't find a way to reward people in LFR for their individual performance.
    2. Instead of bosses in LFR having 12 abilities that are all so nerfed down that none of them matter, it would be nice if boss abilities were pruned to ~4 that actually mattered and could kill you. I don't think it's unreasonable for LFR to have at least the same difficulty as heroic dungeons.
    Not talking about removing LFR but just commenting on your statements:
    1) Mythic+ Dungeons will take the space of LFR (probably) as they drop better, scalable loot (except tier sets)
    Furthermore they want to add more dungeons over the course of Legion
    2) There was a time where questing in raid groups was possible but was removed.
    At the moment thats true, but normal only takes 10 ppl and is scaleable up to 30. When I was still leading a raid we had members joining when they had time and going maybe thanks to work or family (little kids and stuff) - well we had a core grp of about 12 ppl so we could raid even when ppl did not show up
    3) Thats sort of true - but normal nowadays is really forgiving (except certain death mechanics)
    4) See point 2 - its flexible
    5) With personal dropping more gear on average and gear from personal becoming tradeable i dont think many groups will still run masterlooter mode except the mythic raids

    There was a suggestion by the fatboss guys to make normal more easy not in terms of mechanics but in terms of triggering/reaction time.
    For example old normal: Big purple puddle explodes after 3 secs - u die when standing in it
    New normal: Big purple puddle explodes after 10 secs - u die when standing in it

    That would make it i think highly accessible cause you can learn the mechanics and stuff but you just cant afk through it

    Well this could also be done in LFR if you want so
    Would work either way
    But in LFR most ppl refuse to communicate at all and even if one tells strats its often dismissed (thanks to everything being irrelevant)

  14. #194
    Eh no offense to anyone if LFR is your thing but those of you who are defending it like it's a great reason you log into the game and so on are a small minority. Sure many more people have completed LFR in WOD than Mythic, that does not in any way tell us anything about how much people actually enjoy it, and to be clear the majority do it simply to get valor when their other sources are tapped out, people don't even really do it to much to get gear on a newly lvl'd alt because there are many other better ways to gear alts, including Ashran and crafted gear, which will provide you with easy to obtain gear that is a lot better than LFR and will get you where you need to be to start raiding heroic.

    Honestly it's so easy to gear up right now you don't even need to raid normal mode at all, unless you're just bad or you're after set bonuses. That said, I only recently came back to the game after quitting before SOO was released and there is almost no meaningful way to gear up my main characters than to do mythics after just a little over a month of raiding. It's totally not difficult to get better at the game and gear up if you're determined enough.
    Last edited by Shakou; 2016-07-01 at 11:36 AM.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    LFR tuning is a symptom of underlying sores. It needs to be tuned for a toxic/apathetic environment.
    Without any consequences to actions, 80% of people still behave decent, and 20% turn into total toxic jerks.
    The environment is toxic due to the incompetency of LFR only players.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    The environment is toxic due to the incompetency of LFR only players.
    No they are playing at their competency level. It is people coming in expecting something different that bring in the toxic element.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    No they are playing at their competency level.
    sort of like telling a fat person to get in shape and them responding that round IS a shape?
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    sort of like telling a fat person to get in shape and them responding that round IS a shape?
    No. They clicked a button and are happy doing whatever until Preachy MacWindbag comes in crying that people are doing just everything wrong.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    The environment is toxic due to the incompetency of LFR only players.
    No. Before 'determination' was introduced toxicity was a lot less. People will sink as low as they can get away with.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    No. Before 'determination' was introduced toxicity was a lot less. People will sink as low as they can get away with.
    yeah. good ole deturdination.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

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