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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Samayael View Post
    I don't see how something that controls BT's crit buff being pushed out of the rotation isn't objectively an issue, especially during Execute phase where, since it's pushed out almost completely, BT has absolutely no way to have a better chance at critting. If FS was nothing but filler and didn't have TfB (and Frenzy if you talent that), this wouldn't be an issue at all. Simple filler being pushed out for better things is perfectly fine. And for the record, I hate Furious Slash and would love to see it go away or simply become filler. That's completely subjective.

    And it's not really subjective at all to say that FS being pushed out devaluing our mastery due to vastly reduced Enrage uptime during Execute phases is also an issue. Enrage, as it stands, will likely have lower uptime due to FS being pushed out. Again, something being pushed out is fine, but one of the core mechanics of our spec and its mastery being reduced drastically in only 20% of a fight is 100% objectively an issue. We need consistent ways to become Enraged in ALL phases of a fight, and as it stands currently, FS doesn't do that. That's objectively an issue, and it's something that has been an almost unanimous piece of feedback for all of beta and certainly a good deal of alpha.

    It would be nice if more was tied to BT itself, like its crit chance and probably Odyn's Champion since sub 20%, you really don't have any way to proc that minus talenting Massacre, but that's me.

    But objectively? Yeah, FS is an issue. There's nothing subjective about that.
    FINALLY ... someone who understands the problem! thank you ...

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Samayael View Post
    I don't see how something that controls BT's crit buff being pushed out of the rotation isn't objectively an issue, especially during Execute phase where, since it's pushed out almost completely, BT has absolutely no way to have a better chance at critting. If FS was nothing but filler and didn't have TfB (and Frenzy if you talent that), this wouldn't be an issue at all. Simple filler being pushed out for better things is perfectly fine. And for the record, I hate Furious Slash and would love to see it go away or simply become filler. That's completely subjective.

    And it's not really subjective at all to say that FS being pushed out devaluing our mastery due to vastly reduced Enrage uptime during Execute phases is also an issue. Enrage, as it stands, will likely have lower uptime due to FS being pushed out. Again, something being pushed out is fine, but one of the core mechanics of our spec and its mastery being reduced drastically in only 20% of a fight is 100% objectively an issue. We need consistent ways to become Enraged in ALL phases of a fight, and as it stands currently, FS doesn't do that. That's objectively an issue, and it's something that has been an almost unanimous piece of feedback for all of beta and certainly a good deal of alpha.

    It would be nice if more was tied to BT itself, like its crit chance and probably Odyn's Champion since sub 20%, you really don't have any way to proc that minus talenting Massacre, but that's me.

    But objectively? Yeah, FS is an issue. There's nothing subjective about that.



    As I get farther and farther into math (woo woo advanced analysis and linear this fall), I forget simple things. If there aren't letters in my math, I don't remember how to do any of it.
    Great post. Furios Slash in its current iteration is objectively badly designed. The subjective part comes down to you liking or not the current gameplay of Fury. But Furious Slash definitely create balance issues. Execute has to hit way harder than it should to make up for the lack of enrage in that phase.

    It's something that can be seen a lot in Riot's design for those who play LoL. They badly design champion abilities and have to buff or nerf the numbers constantly. This is what Furious Slash creates here. By having a flawed design they have to buff other abilities to compensate for the lack of crit on BT and the overall lack of time spent enraged.

    It might not feel like it's an issue gameplay wise, but balanced-wise it clearly is because the spec is not working as intended aka revolving around Enrage in all phases.

    Now, I guess, at the very least, Blizzard should remove the BT buff tied to it, which would solve everything and make Furious Slash a filler (although might just as well remove it entirely at that point).

  3. #163
    Deleted
    The core issue is we have more important things to be pressing than Furious Slash. Now we have an alternative way to become Enraged (Rampage) and eventually enough Haste to generate the rage to sustain high enrage up times the buff to BTs crit change is pretty devalued in my opinion.

    Couple this with the fact from a pure damage point of view we have Raging Blow and Whirlwind to prioritise over it, Furious Slash is totally irrelevant.

    However for some dumb fucking reason our tier set revolve around this utterly useless ability, over and over I keep saying the same phrase "do they even play the spec?" but seriously if they didn't give me reason after reason to say this I wouldn't say it.

  4. #164
    Legendary! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    FYI: Heroic Strike was added in November 2004 (technically before, but that's the launch date of WoW), and removed in November of 2014. It is now June 2016. Simple math tells you that it was in the game for 10 years and has been gone for 1.5.

    Math, how does it work?
    Oh dear.

    HS has been gone for two years.

    We lost the relic slot two years before that.

    http://www.relicslot.org

    I agree with the idea that FS being a problem is subjective, the same way HS being a problem was subjective.
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  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Oh dear.

    HS has been gone for two years.

    We lost the relic slot two years before that.
    "We" didn't lose anything; Warriors didn't even have a relic slot. That also adds up to ~3 1/2 years, which is a far cry less than 10, or the 8 leading up to Mists.

    I agree with the idea that FS being a problem is subjective, the same way HS being a problem was subjective.
    Which simply goes to show the general poor command of the English language. Just because you don't personally consider something a problem doesn't make it subjective. To use a fictional example:

    If I were to say "illegal immigrant workers are taking American citizens jobs, which is causing... X, Y, Z" (for simplicities sake, just pretend the variables stand for some stats about economical impact on median income in a given area; I'd rather not go down this particular rabbit hole), that's not a subjective statement, it's an objective one. Notice I did not say whether this was good or bad, I simply said that it is. What I think of the matter has no bearing, it is a simple statement of fact.

    Now, you can have a subjective opinion about an objective statement. For example, you could say "I don't care that illegal immigrant workers are taking American citizens jobs, which is causing X, Y, Z, because I like the diversity that it brings to the area" (or whatever). This is a perfectly valid opinion, and it's subjective because it's based on your emotional preference, which is only quantifiable by you individually.

    However, that does not change the initial statement; it's facts remain objective, because they don't change based on what anyone thinks about them, they simply are. This is where people most often go wrong - they think that by having a personal opinion about something, it makes the facts supporting the subject a matter of personal opinion. That is a false assumption, the facts presented do not change based on an individuals perception of the weight of the issue.

    TLDR: Facts are objective. An individuals feelings toward the impact of those facts is subjective.

  6. #166
    Blademaster Antiplicity's Avatar
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    I found this kind of funny; the Icon that was used for Furious Slash
    Last edited by Antiplicity; 2016-07-01 at 11:29 AM.

  7. #167
    As someone else brought up earlier in the thread, I think one of the simpler solutions would be to decouple the BT crit boost from an individual ability. Make it a passive that specials other than BT give TfB (probably at a lower % than current). It is really the only way to make the "Choose your own ability loadout" talent setup Blizz introduced. Those who enjoy the play style around furious slash, and the talents that hook into it, get to keep using it and it will pretty much be the same. Those who care more about the enrage enabling than the actual attack or play style that can be built around Furious Slash can use it as a low priority filler without giving up the ability to enable the core mechanic of the class.

  8. #168
    Stood in the Fire Leyl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murlocbait View Post
    That is completely useless. Seriously, what point are you trying to make? I'm not being a dick, i'm legitimately curious.
    Figure it out. I'm not trying to be a dick. Ciao.
    #SargerasIsComingToSaveUs

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Heroic Strike has been removed for roughly the same amount of time that Heroic Strike was in the game and we lost the third weapon slot. Let it go.
    LOL

    I guess you started playing when cata was released?

  10. #170

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakou View Post
    Rip wotlk fury
    WOTLK fury was horrid.... Pressing effin HS every GCD... no thanks I will take WS or FS any day over that garbage. Its been so long I cant even remember TBC fury rotation and I played rogue in Vanilla.

    I agree 100% that FS just feels so awkward and dumb. I haven't tested a raid boss to see an execute phase and thus I didnt think about that problem. But i agree thats a huge problem our BT crits being gimped because of a BS ability you dont want to use during execute phase.

  12. #172
    Wasn't TBC Slam spam? I don't understand people that miss those gameplays, like, did you really enjoy spamming one or two buttons max for the entirety of a fight? That being said, I still don't understand why they had to destroy SoO's fury iteration, probably the best gameplay they ever came up with with Cata's Arms.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Leyl View Post
    Figure it out. I'm not trying to be a dick. Ciao.
    No.
    /10char

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Roidz View Post
    WOTLK fury was horrid.... Pressing effin HS every GCD... no thanks I will take WS or FS any day over that garbage. Its been so long I cant even remember TBC fury rotation and I played rogue in Vanilla.

    I agree 100% that FS just feels so awkward and dumb. I haven't tested a raid boss to see an execute phase and thus I didnt think about that problem. But i agree thats a huge problem our BT crits being gimped because of a BS ability you dont want to use during execute phase.
    Have to say I'm with the WOTLK fanclub crowd. just some pointers people get wrong about it or miss out.

    1. Heroic Strike wasn't on the global cooldown, it was tied to weapon speed and replaced mainhand melee swings. Haste/attack speed buffs really gave the impression of increasing the pace of the spec as a result, Bloodlust felt especially awesome and I really liked the animation and sound effect of HC Strike, there was something strangely satisfying about mashing that HC strike key, and gambling on the +rage you got back from the glyph when you crit.

    2. Bloodthirst + Whirlwind on cooldown someone mentioned, but we also had Bloodsurge which procced a free Slam.. Essentially what they later turned into the Wild Strike system but with a better sound effect and the unique damage scaling attributes of Slam (it didn't follow normalised weapon speed/attack power formulas). T10 gave 2 charges of Slam as the set bonus.

    3. Rend - Especially at the end of T9 and early T10 we were stance dancing to apply Rend which greatly increased the skillcap of the spec, really Fury during that period while we were doing this was a much higher skillcap than WOD or Legion.


    And people also like it because it was very consistent, the spec wasn't just plagued by constant RNG like it is today, and the good players still set themselves apart from the bad. Though it's probably true that many people remember WOTLK Fury so fondly because it was overpowered, given that it could match any class on single target whilst also decimating any class on cleave, and the cleave was so high it could even do respectible against AOE classes despite having a 4 target limit.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2016-07-01 at 04:55 PM.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Have to say I'm with the WOTLK fanclub crowd. just some pointers people get wrong about it or miss out.

    1. Heroic Strike wasn't on the global cooldown, it was tied to weapon speed and replaced mainhand melee swings. Haste/attack speed buffs really gave the impression of increasing the pace of the spec as a result, Bloodlust felt especially awesome and I really liked the animation and sound effect of HC Strike, there was something strangely satisfying about mashing that HC strike key, and gambling on the +rage you got back from the glyph when you crit.

    2. Bloodthirst + Whirlwind on cooldown someone mentioned, but we also had Bloodsurge which procced a free Slam.. Essentially what they later turned into the Wild Strike system but with a better sound effect and the unique damage scaling attributes of Slam (it didn't follow normalised weapon speed/attack power formulas). T10 gave 2 charges of Slam as the set bonus.

    3. Rend - Especially at the end of T9 and early T10 we were stance dancing to apply Rend which greatly increased the skillcap of the spec, really Fury during that period while we were doing this was a much higher skillcap than WOD or Legion.


    And people also like it because it was very consistent, the spec wasn't just plagued by constant RNG like it is today, and the good players still set themselves apart from the bad. Though it's probably true that many people remember WOTLK Fury so fondly because it was overpowered, given that it could match any class on single target whilst also decimating any class on cleave, and the cleave was so high it could even do respectible against AOE classes despite having a 4 target limit.
    To each their own I just don't get how mashing one key constantly while doing a rotation is fun or engaging. Felt like you were getting carpal tunnel on long boss fights.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Roidz View Post
    To each their own I just don't get how mashing one key constantly while doing a rotation is fun or engaging. Felt like you were getting carpal tunnel on long boss fights.
    That's probably more down to a flaw of technique than anything else. If you're trying to do everything with your left hand you're gonna get into issues. About 8 years back I had to go for physical therapy (Osteopath) for my wrists due to RSI. I was a professional musician at the time, I was spending 4+ hours a day playing guitar and the rest of the time I was playing World of Warcraft and started getting some pretty serious and painful problems with my wrsits.

    After that I learned to adjust my techniques and approaches to fix the problem. Guitaring aside, part of that learning process was also initially clicking Heroic Strike with my mouse, while doing the rest of the rotation with my left hand. Then I replaced clicking HS with a dedicated mouse button, eventually getting a Razer Naga in 2009 making that solution even better.

    So yes, heroic strike with the right hand and the rest with the left hand. No carpel tunnel, tennis elbow esque repetitive strain injuries, only forcing yourself to play entirely on the left hand would do that. Was the same in Highmaul with Gladiator, I could play it at 100% effectiveness with no issues at all in terms of RSI, no pain or excessive fatigue, no problem.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Roidz View Post
    To each their own I just don't get how mashing one key constantly while doing a rotation is fun or engaging. Felt like you were getting carpal tunnel on long boss fights.
    The Fury rotation in Wrath was definitely engaging in terms of button mashing, and many players found it rewarding due to the general overtuning of end of expansion Warriors pre-rage normalization. However, in terms of complexity, it left very much to be desired. Collision used to have an ICC log screenshots that shows the monotonous nature of the rotation, I'll try to dig it up again, because it's quite funny to look at in comparison to now.

    That said, the key difference is time - it changes the perception of everything.

    At the time of Wrath, and while some classes were more complex than others, things like variable proc attacks were relatively new, and most rotations didn't have complex buff/debuff cycles or multiple stackable cooldowns; likewise, simpler talent design lead to less class variance as a whole. It was very much a simpler time of simpler design. In that light, you could easily say that Fury was more complex than in previous designs, which made it interesting and engaging. As time carries on, nostalgia kicks in, and many players think fondly back on Wrath, even though the rotation would be considered downright mind-numbing by today's standards.

    I certainly enjoyed ICC-era Fury, but to call it the pinnacle of design would be a hard sell.

  18. #178
    There's been a ton of great feedback on the Beta fury class thread. I'd say the best feedback given for any spec in the entire Legion alpha/beta. But the sad truth is...it's too late. They're not going to chance the core dynamics of a spec at this point. It's just number tuning now. So either you can live with the way it is, or reroll.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Coffeh View Post
    There's been a ton of great feedback on the Beta fury class thread. I'd say the best feedback given for any spec in the entire Legion alpha/beta. But the sad truth is...it's too late. They're not going to chance the core dynamics of a spec at this point. It's just number tuning now. So either you can live with the way it is, or reroll.
    Maybe, but we thought that during the alpha phase and then they did a 180 and started changing stuff. But you're right it's very unlikely at this point, pre-patch will be out in a few weeks.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Maybe, but we thought that during the alpha phase and then they did a 180 and started changing stuff. But you're right it's very unlikely at this point, pre-patch will be out in a few weeks.
    I don't feel like we're asking for MAJOR mechanical changes. At the core for both Furious Slash and Execute issues it's just a mechanic that's already available that needs to be more accessible. They've made some big changes recently to Outlaw, Frost Mages, tuned some DK stuff pretty heavily on the same level of things we're asking for.

    For Arms especially, I mean damn. It's a better Tactician proc rate and/or lower cooldown. Then better rage generation in execute phase. Those are not major things at all and should easily fall under "tuning"

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