Should the EU dissolve?

[ArguesWithStrangers]

Population of EU: over 500 million.
Population of US: around 330 million.

EU GDP: 18514 billion dollars
US GDP: 17947 billion dollars.

The US is much more of a military superpower, but that is a result of military policy. And in today's world, while military is still important, it's not the only metric of power.

And yet the most powerful militaries in Europe rely on the United States for leadership and purpose via the NATO alliance instead of Brussels. The most important measure of power is your ability to influence others to pursue your agenda. Let me know how powerful the EU is when you convince the Greeks to go to work.

[Deleted]

Austria isn't fighting IS right now though and I don't think they have any plans to do so in the future.

They actually are as part of the EU. It's not about throwing bombs though. It's about funding, secret agenys talk and so on.

I know some want to go back to times of isolism. But people weren't richer back then. They didn't have enough money to eat and surely not enough money for a pc, smartphone and inet connection.

[Independent voter]

EU GDP: 18514 billion dollars
US GDP: 17947 billion dollars.

Not any more. lol

[Nyel]

We actually need to get more connection to other cultures so people finally lose their prejudices. That's the way to a brighter future. Not that stupid nationalism, fighting (civil) wars.

You don't get those connections by letting in people that don't have any education or qualification for the European market. It's hard to say that but it's the truth. With the EU politics right now our future is anything but bright.

And people talking about fighting ISIS or terrorism... you remember Charlie Hebdo? Paris in November? Brussels in March? The EU can't stop or prevent us from terrorism indeed the EU is the problem in fighting and avoiding it. Most terrorists where known by several intelligence agencies in Europe and nobody cared. They were known by the police and nobody cared. Why the hell should the EU strenghten the battle against terrorism? It's limiting it.

[Deleted]

And yet the most powerful militaries in Europe rely on the United States for leadership and purpose via the NATO alliance instead of Brussels. The most important measure of power is your ability to influence others to pursue your agenda. Let me know how powerful the EU is when you convince the Greeks to go to work.

And that's why we need to strengthen EU.Actually everyone aside of UK wanted a common military hq. Maybe it will happen now after Brexit.

Anyways that's not the way i want the EU to be. It's about forming alliances, not more military.

[Aucald]

The problem is: poeple are being promised that outside of EU, they are stronger. How? How is Austria supposed to fight IS? Get good treaties with China when China can dictate the terms.

Really. Nothing gets better. But some people tell them they would be magically better. One of the silliest things are statements like "we will negotiate better treaties". As if the current governments persists out of idiots. Just look at Greece, in the end they had to accept the terms although Syriza promised they would get a dept cut.

I don't believe the EU was formed on the basis of mutual protection against outside aggressors (e.g. not in the same manner that the USA was in 18th century). The EU is primarily an economic union designed to increase the mutual trade and economic power of its member states. The EU has no standing army, no shared military, and no system of international garrisons or troops it could deploy to meet an aggressive state or terrorist threat - for that it relies pretty much entirely on NATO, and its allies such as the US and other nations.

In a military sense, being inside or outside the EU wouldn't make a whole lot of difference to an individual member-state. In an economical sense being inside the EU increases their bargaining and trade powers by backing them with fellow member-states. The story of Greece is a more complex affair but hinges largely on Greece's own sovereign debt issues, mishandling of their economy by the local government, and the removal of the primary tool they had once relied on (depreciation of their sovereign currency to promote investment) as they had adopted the currency of the EU which they couldn't unilaterally control.

[nonameelf]

They actually are as part of the EU. It's not about throwing bombs though. It's about funding, secret agenys talk and so on.

I know some want to go back to times of isolism. But people weren't richer back then. They didn't have enough money to eat and surely not enough money for a pc, smartphone and inet connection.

I don't think they'd be better off economically, I just don't think they'd go to war with IS if they left either. Austria is constitutionally neutral.

[Deleted]

Not any more. lol

Always in steady change. UK is still part of the EU. Might be in 5 years because all their exit plans (first negotiate, then invoke article 50) won't happen with EU. And the UK won't invoke Art. 50 on its own.

They just need some time to sourt out their internal business. It's much more an internal UK crisis than an EU crisis.

[Independent voter]

Always in steady change. UK is still part of the EU. Might be in 5 years because all their exit plans (first negotiate, then invoke article 50) won't happen with EU. And the UK won't invoke Art. 50 on its own.

They just need some time to sourt out their internal business. It's much more an internal UK crisis than an EU crisis.

That's true.

[Kuntantee]

It's a convenient institution for non-EU countries too. It should remain as it is.


@Shalcker
Erdogan and Putin started to be intimate again, what's your take? Seems like the sanctions are lifting

[Cairhiin]

Oh something threatens the US let's hope it disbands! No, the EU should not disband, it brings stability in the region. Also Russia is more likely to accept the EU as a military power than it would accept NATO.

[Deleted]

I don't think they'd be better off economically, I just don't think they'd go to war with IS if they left either. Austria is constitutionally neutral.

And not fighting IS is - what? Stupid?

The US retiring just made it worse. They were fighting a harmless Iraq, created a big mess, but now they are tired of wars they started?

In the end all we see is a tired US wanting to retreat within its own borders. That will weaken their influence in the world. I'm hoping one day will try to distance themselves more from the US and get some better connection to russia.

But this can only work if the EU can get more indepent from the US . Actually with UK gone the US influence would get lower as the UK were always a US playball.

I believe that's part of the reason why some US people are so keen on EU dissolving after Brexit. But i don't see a Brexit ever really happen. Noone will invoke Article 50.

I think for the EU, longterm, a Brexit could be beneficial though.

[Deleted]

Lol, are you saying that the Leave campaign didn't take back every bloody promise they made in order to win the referendum with a small majority?

Im saying your misleading, ignoring the fearmongering and dishonesty of of the remain camp.

Now that you put the notion of EVERY promise, what promiseS did they make they back out of? First all the president stepped down he's and the cabinet need to execute everything.
But talking specifically only staying calm and taking the time...yeah ofcourse if anything the remain camp made clear is that it's not easy to leave so the process needs to be carefully done. I havn't seen a single polititian initiate something instantly except when a great tragedy occurs (terrorist attack, war)

[Nyel]

Oh something threatens the US let's hope it disbands! No, the EU should not disband, it brings stability in the region. Also Russia is more likely to accept the EU as a military power than it would accept NATO.

Stability? Think about all the countries affected by the Euro crisis, think about Greece, the refugee crisis and many other issues in the EU. I don't know if Europe was as divided as it is now in the last 10 years.

[nonameelf]

And not fighting IS is - what? Stupid?

The US retiring just made it worse. They were fighting a harmless Iraq, created a big mess, but now they are tired of wars they started?

In the end all we see is a tired US wanting to retreat within its own borders. That will weaken their influence in the world. I'm hoping one day will try to distance themselves more from the US and get some better connection to russia.

That's how neutrality works, you don't get involved in wars unless someone attacks you.

[muto]

Oh something threatens the US let's hope it disbands! No, the EU should not disband, it brings stability in the region. Also Russia is more likely to accept the EU as a military power than it would accept NATO.

No it doesn't. Europe is not a threat to the United States, and vice versa.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

And that's why we need to strengthen EU.Actually everyone aside of UK wanted a common military hq. Maybe it will happen now after Brexit.

Anyways that's not the way i want the EU to be. It's about forming alliances, not more military.

That's fine and all, but in order for you to enjoy the unity of purpose that is practiced by the United States, you will have to shed your national identities and power structures for a supreme federal government able to impose its will on regional legislatures. It took us several constitutional conventions, 85 years, and a bloody civil war to make that happen, and we all spoke the same language shared a similar cultural heritage, and fought together in a Revolution. I don't see that working with Europe. Even if that were not the case, the powers-that-be in the EU currently seem hell bent on cultural suicide, which is really sad, because European history and culture is worth preserving.

[Deleted]

Not quite right, there are NO negotiations before they invoke article 50 and article 50 negotiations are just about how they leave, trade deals and whatnot are not part of that negotiation, it will happen after they leave.

Also only the UK can activate article 50, if they don't everything just continues as it has been.

Yeah i know, but who cares? The UK won't invoke Art. 50. Their politicians just need to stabilize their country before they can announce this. It's okay to safe what's left.

[Independent voter]

Stability? Think about all the countries affected by the Euro crisis, think about Greece, the refugee crisis and many other issues in the EU. I don't know if Europe was as divided as it is now in the last 10 years.

Putin destabilized the EU in retaliation for the sanctions on Ukraine and Crimea. Putin had Russia's long time all Assad the Shiite president of Syria terrorize the Sunni Syrians and drove the Sunni Syrians into the EU like cattle. All those refugees destabilized the EU and Britain did the brexit.

Meanwhile Putin chortles with glee.

[Revi]

And yet the most powerful militaries in Europe rely on the United States for leadership and purpose via the NATO alliance instead of Brussels. The most important measure of power is your ability to influence others to pursue your agenda. Let me know how powerful the EU is when you convince the Greeks to go to work.

Are you suggesting they should use military force to increase greek employment rates?