20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[TheHodedOne]

13 months of Eternal Orcs of the Green Fire Citadel already and only 8% of the players have Mythic achv.

[Trapped]

It's entirely dependant on the difficulty. Yes, it's much easier to be carried in 25 man LFR than it would be in 10 man.

Its not only dependent on the difficulty. I guess I need to type it all out? A few higher geared players in a LARGER raid allows for more undergeared/underskilled players. It is literally simple math. Please don't tell me that you can't carry people in 20-mans or the old 25-mans.

[Lilija]

Its not only dependent on the difficulty. I guess I need to type it all out? A few higher geared players in a LARGER raid allows for more undergeared/underskilled players. It is literally simple math. Please don't tell me that you can't carry people in 20-mans or the old 25-mans.

Not during progress. You can carry people whe you OUTGEAR THE INSTANCE which isn't the case during progress.

[KaPe]

Its not only dependent on the difficulty. I guess I need to type it all out? A few higher geared players in a LARGER raid allows for more undergeared/underskilled players. It is literally simple math. Please don't tell me that you can't carry people in 20-mans or the old 25-mans.

Difficulty is directly affected by gear, so you only prove my point? Obviously if you can bypass mechanic X because your DPS is now high enough, you can afford to carry someone. However, this is generally only true if you outgear the encounter, stack certain classes or find "creative use of mechanics". At that point, you're either progressing harder bosses or are in farm mode, so it doesn't really matter.

[Osmeric]

13 months of Eternal Orcs of the Green Fire Citadel already and only 8% of the players have Mythic achv.

My casual raiding guild is 13/13H, but we stopped with that because we don't have 20 raiders. I'm sure if we did we could have done some of the early mythic bosses. No big deal that we didn't, though. It's not as if we were itching to actually do mythic, or care much about it.

[cFortyfive]

Please don't tell me that you can't carry people in 20-mans or the old 25-mans.

pretty sure I carried players in all raidsizes over my tenure in this shitty game don't know what the point there is. It's simply not tuned to require ti winner skills.

[Trapped]

pretty sure I carried players in all raidsizes over my tenure in this shitty game don't know what the point there is. It's simply not tuned to require ti winner skills.

You can probably get to a point where you can practically 18 or 19-man a Mythic encounter and just bring a few warm bodies to luldps. The same can't be said for a strict 10-man roster (back in the day).

[Relapses]

You can probably get to a point where you can practically 18 or 19-man a Mythic encounter and just bring a few warm bodies to luldps. The same can't be said for a strict 10-man roster (back in the day).

You're fucking kidding, right? I carried so many window-licking mongoloids in 10M it's not even funny. In fact, by and large, 10M players were often worse at the game in my experience simply because there were so many of them whom only cleared half the fucking instance because they were literally too fucking retarded to do anything more. Please stop trying to make this argument that 10M was harder because there were fewer players. 10M endgame raiding is dead. Get the fuck over it.

[Trapped]

You're fucking kidding, right? I carried so many window-licking mongoloids in 10M it's not even funny. In fact, by and large, 10M players were often worse at the game in my experience simply because there were so many of them whom only cleared half the fucking instance because they were literally too fucking retarded to do anything more. Please stop trying to make this argument that 10M was harder because there were fewer players. 10M endgame raiding is dead. Get the fuck over it.

Wow, relax dude. Omg.

I never said you can't carry in 10-mans. I said its easier to carry in larger raid groups. Just going by dps, 1 dps person is making up 1/14th (using 2-14-4 as an example) of your raid's damage (7%). In a 10-man (using 2-6-2 as an example), 1 dps'er is making up 1/6th of the raid's damage (16%). You're telling me that its not easier to bring a slacker dps in a 20-man (or 25, or 30) than it is a 10-man? And I'm not talking about comparing the old 10-man heroic difficulty to today's mythic difficulty. I'm saying in simple terms, if both raid difficulties were equal, its easier to carry in larger groups, as "bads" stand out more in smaller groups. Why do you think LFR is 25-man? It would fail miserably in 10-man format.

Come on Mr. Mythic Raider, spout more biased nonsense.

[cFortyfive]

I never said you can't carry in 10-mans.

Pretty sure you kinda wrote that. Anyways I don't really disagree although 10s had other advantages as well especially during mop with how much impact discs and ridiculously overpowered tanks had on 10s. You could carry so ridiculously hard as a tank even on 25s.

[Deleted]

You're fucking kidding, right? I carried so many window-licking mongoloids in 10M it's not even funny. In fact, by and large, 10M players were often worse at the game in my experience simply because there were so many of them whom only cleared half the fucking instance because they were literally too fucking retarded to do anything more. Please stop trying to make this argument that 10M was harder because there were fewer players. 10M endgame raiding is dead. Get the fuck over it.

Wow... I never seen so much anger in one post. Even about stuff that matters in real life! You could carry the same % of players in 25 vs 10 man. I remember boosting in 25 man with 5 boosties and 20 boosters in SoO and ToT. And from what I did do of 10 man (which I still prefer) the max I could see was carrying 2. Numbers are higher, but the % is stil the same.

[Relapses]

Wow... I never seen so much anger in one post. Even about stuff that matters in real life! You could carry the same % of players in 25 vs 10 man. I remember boosting in 25 man with 5 boosties and 20 boosters in SoO and ToT. And from what I did do of 10 man (which I still prefer) the max I could see was carrying 2. Numbers are higher, but the % is stil the same.

...which is literally what I said on the last page. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what number of people the raid has in it. Tuning for progression is all that matters and if it's done properly, the instance is just as difficult at 10M as it is at 17M as it is at 43M. This dude conveniently ignores this argument and continues to drone on and on about this idea in his head that 10M Heroic was somehow "more difficult" because there were fewer players. There's no basis for this argument and it's extremely frustrating to argue with somebody who not only intentionally ignores evidence which disproves his theory but also demeans anybody who can't see things from his perspective.

[Deleted]

...which is literally what I said on the last page. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what number of people the raid has in it. Tuning for progression is all that matters and if it's done properly, the instance is just as difficult at 10M as it is at 17M as it is at 43M. This dude conveniently ignores this argument and continues to drone on and on about this idea in his head that 10M Heroic was somehow "more difficult" because there were fewer players. There's no basis for this argument and it's extremely frustrating to argue with somebody who not only intentionally ignores evidence which disproves his theory but also demeans anybody who can't see things from his perspective.

I always found 25 man to be more difficult purely because you need 24 other equal or better skilled players when 10 man only required 9. I loved 10 man because of literally zero roster issues and easier to manage.

[Relapses]

I always found 25 man to be more difficult purely because you need 24 other equal or better skilled players when 10 man only required 9. I loved 10 man because of literally zero roster issues and easier to manage.

I raided both 10s and 25s for all of Cata and MoP. I had no preference as I always raided for the group of people I was raiding with over the progression. 10s had advantages as 25s had disadvantages (and vice versa). But after it all, I find myself much, much more satisfied with raids being tuned around a singular raid size than I ever did when they were subject to huge discrepancies between the two raid sizes in the game's previous raid hierarchy.

[Jaylock]

I raided both 10s and 25s for all of Cata and MoP. I had no preference as I always raided for the group of people I was raiding with over the progression. 10s had advantages as 25s had disadvantages (and vice versa). But after it all, I find myself much, much more satisfied with raids being tuned around a singular raid size than I ever did when they were subject to huge discrepancies between the two raid sizes in the game's previous raid hierarchy.

This is exactly right on the money. Which is why the 20 man mythic raid format has been a wildly huge success. If you cant find 20 players by now to get together and clear the hardest content, those people still have flex heroic to go tackle.

Besides, most people who run heroic raid content (in the current flex format) usually do it with 14+ players because for some reason in their minds they think its easier with 14 rather than 10. So most guilds already run with one 5 man group shy of a mythic format.

The real question that I have to ask the people whining about the 20 man format: How hard is it to recruit another 5 players? Our guild recruits with ease because we are killing stuff and progressing. I'm also happy to say we are 13/13 mythic HFC

[Propainn]

Wow, relax dude. Omg.

I never said you can't carry in 10-mans. I said its easier to carry in larger raid groups. Just going by dps, 1 dps person is making up 1/14th (using 2-14-4 as an example) of your raid's damage (7%). In a 10-man (using 2-6-2 as an example), 1 dps'er is making up 1/6th of the raid's damage (16%). You're telling me that its not easier to bring a slacker dps in a 20-man (or 25, or 30) than it is a 10-man? And I'm not talking about comparing the old 10-man heroic difficulty to today's mythic difficulty. I'm saying in simple terms, if both raid difficulties were equal, its easier to carry in larger groups, as "bads" stand out more in smaller groups. Why do you think LFR is 25-man? It would fail miserably in 10-man format.

Come on Mr. Mythic Raider, spout more biased nonsense.

I would disagree. One "carry" DPS (or healer) has a significantly higher impact on smaller raid sizes when compared to larger groups. For example, let's say the DPS in the group are pulling 25k each, with the carry breaking 100k. That's a 21.4% increase in damage output in a 20 man setting, vs. a 50% increase to overall raid DPS in 10 player raids.

That said, the inverse is also true. One bad DPS will have a higher impact on smaller raid sizes as well. Therefore, it's easier to be a "carrier" in 10 mans, while it's easier to bring "carryees" to 20 man.

[Deleted]

Blizzard said that by having mythic as 20 man only they could make class specific encounter mechanics. How many did you see? I saw MC'ing engineers on Blast Furnace. That's it. Doesn't seem like gutting 10 man mythic for that was worth it.

[Lilija]

Blizzard said that by having mythic as 20 man only they could make class specific encounter mechanics. How many did you see? I saw MC'ing engineers on Blast Furnace. That's it. Doesn't seem like gutting 10 man mythic for that was worth it.

I would rather say they could assume every class, buff, utility is in the raid. There couldn't really be 100% class specific encounters since that would be unplayable for guilds who don't have the perfect rouster (and that would be the most of raiding guilds).

[Relapses]

I would rather say they could assume every class, buff, utility is in the raid. There couldn't really be 100% class specific encounters since that would be unplayable for guilds who don't have the perfect rouster (and that would be the most of raiding guilds).

This is correct. The issue shouldn't be looked at by how many mechanics Blizzard developed to tackle specific mechanics which would have been much more difficult in smaller raid sizes; it should be looked at that the onus for an "ideal" raid comp is so much more important in smaller raid sizes that it severely impacts the freedom of encounter design.

[Wenoxar]

It became lesser failure when they added cross realm mythic raiding.