[LEGION] Windwalker Discussion

[Babylonius]

Is there a way to check for your Mastery? I tried making a weakaura for it using spell id 115636 but nada.
So if any of you can think of a way I would be gratefull.

What are you trying to check in regards to the mastery?

[Risale]

What are you trying to check in regards to the mastery?

I wanted to make a weakaura that shows me if i cocked up my rotation like 2xTP in a row as you would then drop your bonus dmg from yoour mastery.
The weakaura would either vanish or appear (not sure yet) when I have the buff yes or no.

[Babylonius]

@Babylonius It is unclear if this will synergize with the legendary Hidden Master's Forbidden Touch to add the first Touch of Death‘s damage into the second’s Gale Burst for double dipping, similar to Soul Capacitor and Maalus, the Blood Drinker.

What do you mean exactly? I never played end of WoD so I'm unclear about this explanation. Does it mean that you're going to be able to (possibly) use ToD and gain the damage from Gale Burst + legendary? Someone also mentioned on this page that ToD will benefit from mastery. Will the legendary ToD also benefit?

i posted this on the forums but Chi Orbit doesn't hit big bosses like Nythendra. you guys have a similar experience?

i really hate the level 15 talents. chi burst: although its a short cast, feels like it ruins the flow of the class. and chi wave seems weak for AoE unless i'm missing something

What I meant by double dipping is that the first ToD will explode with the additional Gale Burst damage. The second one could then count that ToD into its own Gale Burst.

We've reported ToD benefiting from Mastery as a bug before, so if its not changed then maybe its intended. The second cast may also benefit since I"m assuming its working as a totally seperate ToD.

I haven't raid tested so I can't speak to that

Chi Wave is for single target, Chi Burst is AOE.

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I wanted to make a weakaura that shows me if i cocked up my rotation like 2xTP in a row as you would then drop your bonus dmg from yoour mastery.
The weakaura would either vanish or appear (not sure yet) when I have the buff yes or no.

There is no buff to track. You'd have to find a way for the WeakAura to know what you cast last and alert you when you cast two things in a row.

[Damaind]

I've always liked Preach's videos for the two big reasons that he has credentials to back up his opinion as worth listening to, and second, that he does a really good job of observing that his experience is subjective to his own play style, and that others may feel differently. This is something the WoW community at large severely lacks in. I don't always agree with his conclusions, but I very rarely (if ever) conclude that he's incorrect. Rather, I conclude that what works for him doesn't work for me. This is the sign of a good review.

Regarding his findings on wind walker monk, I have to say I largely agree. I started this alpha/beta cycle staunchly in the defensive camp he was referring to. After spending time on the beta in the current builds, particularly since the addition of stun to FoF baseline, I have to say the spec is in a really great place. It's fun and it brings a lot to the table. You uber epic mythic world first raiders out there might feel differently than me, which is okay. But I'm also seeing other uber epic mythic world first raiders saying it's really great. This tells me that while it's not for everyone, it's certainly not garbage. And therefore anyone who is arguing that it's useless for progression is really just expressing a personal opinion that other well respected top tier raiders disagree with.

When someone like Preach comes to the table, I know he's never been a ww main. But I also know he has world-first raid kills under his belt. He's done top tier raiding as a tank, healer, melee and caster, so his opinion is worth something. Maybe not as much as some of the folks on this thread, but on the other hand, people on this thread such as Babylonius see the spec is very valid, and his opinion is worth at least as much as anyone else's on this thread. So I think we can all be humble enough to admit that there's a good enough mix and so it's fair to say none of us really know how good a raiding spec it will be, and all we really know is whether or not we personally like it.

So all that being said, I do personally like this spec a lot. I don't like that they removed a lot of our survivability, but I (and others) have found that baseline stun in FoF compensates for this decently while also allowing us to bring something unique from rogues and demon hunters to the table. I don't like the tab targeting for SCK as Preach does. I find it very awkward to tab in a melee pack. On the other hand its really fun when SEF is active and when it's not then you only have to tab a couple times to get good numbers. It's a downside I can live with.

IF FoF stun is back to being baseline then I assume the PvP talent for that is either old or needs to be re worded for "now also stuns players." or something along those lines?

[v1perz53]

Man everyone needs to quit gunning for them to change the beautiful (for PvP) ranged AoE slow attached to the artifact ability. Sure, it sucks for PvE but I really like the PvP uses for it, and I've never needed an arbitrary extra effect tacked to my abilities to make them interesting as long as they hit hard enough to feel satisfying to hit rotationally, especially given an ability that gets a nice bursty bonus for AoE/Cleave.

[Kainslife]

What are the other classes?

Did you have any suggestions regarding the Mythic+ dungeon comp i was talking about? Wasn't sure if you missed my reply.

[Nfinitii]

I really hate that they removed the stun from FoF, it was one of my favorite things about monk.

Is it me or is the monk talents really boring compared to some others. I really hate talent choices like hit combo and chi orbit, 0 impact on ur game play just a passive damage increase.

[Qck]

I really hate that they removed the stun from FoF, it was one of my favorite things about monk.

I don't know if it's a bug, but currently the stun is there. I really hope it remains as well, if only for the fact that it makes leveling to 110 an absolute dream.

Is it me or is the monk talents really boring compared to some others. I really hate talent choices like hit combo and chi orbit, 0 impact on ur game play just a passive damage increase.

I think that's the point, though. You can choose between more rotational buttons(RJW/WDP - Just so happens these also have cleave/AoE attached), more CD's for burst(Xuen/Serenity) or passive damage increases(Hit Combo/Chi Orbit). I like the idea behind it, but it can certainly be a problem if one is the default choice in all situations and/or a significant single target increase, basically removing any choice.

I'm really surprised at how strong Chi Orbit is though, it's kinda ridiculous. #1-2 most damaging ability in most content I've done(haven't tried a decent length boss yet) and requires absolutely 0 thought and it's a talent. Still tuning to go though, would be nice to see a nerf to it and some boosts in other areas.

[Deleted]

Did you have any suggestions regarding the Mythic+ dungeon comp i was talking about? Wasn't sure if you missed my reply.

I actually got no clue, I was just tryna make sure you provide adequate information for someone that does. Sorry for getting your hopes up ^_^

[Ryuutora]

Is it me or is the monk talents really boring compared to some others.I really hate talent choices like hit combo and chi orbit, 0 impact on ur game play just a passive damage increase.

I like the idea of Active and Passive talents, giving people the option to customize their playstyles, and while choices is great and all, I feel it works better for some specs more than others. Demonology Example - Shadow Inspiration + Demonbolt while Hand of Gul'dan + Impending Doom but also Demonbolt and 90 boosts all them when it proc's for the Demon (which boosts the Warlock and everything in turn).

I know each class has it's own problems but I thought, and hoped, they'd change it up to fit more for each spec of like other classes, with some revamps, or atleast changing up how structured it is.

Like Monk is already high in mobility, I don't really see the need to have an entire row for even more mobility. If something, anything, was made baseline there would've been room for more spec thematic talents; attacks + animations or maybe empowering abilities like a combo. And even now that the row is still there, none differ for each spec. Ideally the PvP talents would've been pretty cool - This, this, and this.

Being able to choose RJW + Xuen or Chi Burst + Eye of the Tiger. Energizing Elixir as a damaging CD, that still adds Chi, but mainly triggering Combo Strikes. If only Windwalker could use more abilities than cooldowns allow, Hit Combo would seem more interesting to me. Chi Orbit - too 2.1 Marauder DH if anyone gets that reference.

All in all they're mostly stuff we've seen before, they work, and they're just as straightforward as the spec is; no RNG to do extra, no stat interactions(crits does X dmg, this gives Y haste), no dying....horribly, etc.

[Nfinitii]

I like the idea of Active and Passive talents, giving people the option to customize their playstyles, and while choices is great and all, I feel it works better for some specs more than others. Demonology Example - Shadow Inspiration + Demonbolt while Hand of Gul'dan + Impending Doom but also Demonbolt and 90 boosts all them when it proc's for the Demon (which boosts the Warlock and everything in turn).

I know each class has it's own problems but I thought, and hoped, they'd change it up to fit more for each spec of like other classes, with some revamps, or atleast changing up how structured it is.

Like Monk is already high in mobility, I don't really see the need to have an entire row for even more mobility. If something, anything, was made baseline there would've been room for more spec thematic talents; attacks + animations or maybe empowering abilities like a combo. And even now that the row is still there, none differ for each spec. Ideally the PvP talents would've been pretty cool - This, this, and this.

Being able to choose RJW + Xuen or Chi Burst + Eye of the Tiger. Energizing Elixir as a damaging CD, that still adds Chi, but mainly triggering Combo Strikes. If only Windwalker could use more abilities than cooldowns allow, Hit Combo would seem more interesting to me. Chi Orbit - too 2.1 Marauder DH if anyone gets that reference.

All in all they're mostly stuff we've seen before, they work, and they're just as straightforward as the spec is; no RNG to do extra, no stat interactions(crits does X dmg, this gives Y haste), no dying....horribly, etc.

My problems r with Passives like chi orbit and hit combo is they offer no change in game play just a flat dps gain. And if all the talents r suppose to be competitive in dps then y bother with the other options if chi orbit and hit combo r the same dps. Most players will take the path of least resistance, instead they should create chances for players to rise to the challenge which can feel rewarding if pulled off. If they end up being lesser dps options for players who want easier game play options then u literally cut the number of talent options for "non-casual" players from 3 to 2.

Tier 1 I really hated chi burst and wave in wod, they replaced the other option which looks just as dull as the old option.
Tier 2 is just mobility options with tiger's lust giving u a snare break and the other options giving monks more of what they already have.
Tier 3 will be whatever gives u the best dps
Tier 5 pvp talents, probably stick with stun unless I want to knock ppl off but it's not as controlled as I would have liked.
Tier 6 survival healing elixir seems by far the best here unless u need heavy magic protection. I don't like how dampen harm works if I'm understanding it correctly.
Tier 7/8 seems like just pick best dps gain with the passives being very boring.

Overall they r boring to me, the options r either lack luster or one sticks out best in 90% of situations.
Tier 1, best dps option
Tier 2, tigers lust
Tier 3, best dps option
Tier 4, matters less in pve, leg sweep
Tier 5, healing elixir unless u need heavy magic protection
Tier 6/7, best dps option

So half our talents r going to be pick best dps option with the other half having little impact.

Passives like hand of doom changes how aoe and cleave fights work and generating more soul shards because of more dooms up, and it synergizes with impending doom which gives more wild imps.

I really like how some classes have talents that synergizes with other talents on other tiers allowing u to cater ur classes game play based on what ur doing and what situations ur in. This gives players the ability to vary their play styles and other the option of just playing their preferred style.

[Babylonius]

SNIP

I don't know of any class that has DPS options in their talent tree, where one talent isn't better for a scenario than others. To reduce the teirs to "best DPS option" or "little impact" is not a situation unique to WW, its just how the game is played. You seem to have a very specific view of what a talent should do, but to do that over 21 talents just isn't possible, and I'm not sure how many specs have talents that all fit what you think a talent should look like; I think the answer is 0 specs.

Windwalker, right now, has more rotational abilities than just about any other class; and that's without adding at least 4 more talents that are all more buttons to press. Having passive options make it easier for the vast majority of players, and having those passives be nearly as good as the actives mean that those players CAN vary their playstyles.

Right now, the only issue (and its a small one) is that Chi Orbit is doing a little too much damage compared to the more active talents of WDP and Serenity. However, having one of the 4 DPS talent tiers be a passive is quite nice to not have 10 different buttons to work into the rotation.

[Deleted]

If you could even just pool Chi Orbit by switching its activation on/off ...

[Kainslife]

I don't know of any class that has DPS options in their talent tree, where one talent isn't better for a scenario than others. To reduce the teirs to "best DPS option" or "little impact" is not a situation unique to WW, its just how the game is played. You seem to have a very specific view of what a talent should do, but to do that over 21 talents just isn't possible, and I'm not sure how many specs have talents that all fit what you think a talent should look like; I think the answer is 0 specs.

Windwalker, right now, has more rotational abilities than just about any other class; and that's without adding at least 4 more talents that are all more buttons to press. Having passive options make it easier for the vast majority of players, and having those passives be nearly as good as the actives mean that those players CAN vary their playstyles.

Right now, the only issue (and its a small one) is that Chi Orbit is doing a little too much damage compared to the more active talents of WDP and Serenity. However, having one of the 4 DPS talent tiers be a passive is quite nice to not have 10 different buttons to work into the rotation.

Not to mention not every talent is meant to be "fun" for raiders or folks looking to min/max. They need to support all levels of play- even folks like my dad that use absolutely no addons, click their abilities, keyboard turn, etc.

[Babylonius]

If you could even just pool Chi Orbit by switching its activation on/off ...

That wouldn't allow you to pool, just turn it on and off. I doubt, even if they did do this, that you'd turn it on with full 4 orbs circling you. Turning it off would just prevent you from hitting things you don't want, like when mounted or invisible.

[rulee]

That wouldn't allow you to pool, just turn it on and off. I doubt, even if they did do this, that you'd turn it on with full 4 orbs circling you. Turning it off would just prevent you from hitting things you don't want, like when mounted or invisible.

What talents are you leaning towards PVE Babylonius?

I absolutely fell in love with WW in MoP, but couldn't bare it in WoD. I find that legion has made it fun again (for me) so I plan on maining a WW or being second best to my main. I'm really enjoying it again on Beta.

[Babylonius]

What talents are you leaning towards PVE Babylonius?

I absolutely fell in love with WW in MoP, but couldn't bare it in WoD. I find that legion has made it fun again (for me) so I plan on maining a WW or being second best to my main. I'm really enjoying it again on Beta.

I just added a FAQ for Legion to the site for questions like this:
http://www.walkingthewind.com/legion/faq/

And I covered the talent changes here:
http://www.walkingthewind.com/2016/0...alent-changes/

[Conjugate]

Did you have any suggestions regarding the Mythic+ dungeon comp i was talking about? Wasn't sure if you missed my reply.

If it's just mythic+ dungeons you are after, you should be more than fine with a windwalker. The combination of ToD and near-infinite aoe probably the best you can ask for in that type of content. It might not be too easy to survive depending on the size of the pulls considering our lack of defensives, but all in all WW should be really strong in dungeons.

And @Shoeboots, the problem is, and no offense to anyone involved, just stating the actual facts, that Babylonius did not actually test the spec in a raid scenario, and while his optimism is indeed highly admirable, being good in dungeons does not imply being good in raid encounters, this is entirely different. We all agree that WW is a god in dungeons and super in world content, especially once you get the good karma trait. I personally havn't talked to a WW that did mythic raid testing and was happy with the spec in its current state and what it has to offer, but it might just have been pure chance of talking to the wrong people if it's not classified info, might I ask for the identities of those people who found WW to be a highly viable spec for raids after the recent legion testings? Maybe I missed some things.

[Kainslife]

If it's just mythic+ dungeons you are after, you should be more than fine with a windwalker. The combination of ToD and near-infinite aoe probably the best you can ask for in that type of content. It might not be too easy to survive depending on the size of the pulls considering our lack of defensives, but all in all WW should be really strong in dungeons.

What about ST for bosses? Our group is already capable of some pretty heavy AE and I want to make sure that the WW single target is going to be sufficient.

[Ryuutora]

My problems....

I agree with Babylonius, every spec has talents that are the best for certain situations, it's nigh impossible to make non-cookie cutter talents (as we've seen for since this new talent setup).

For Windwalker, they've designed everything with the intent of not complicating things, that goes for every single thing for the spec - from the abilities themselves, to Artifact traits, to the talents; it's flat, straightforward damage increases but they (sorta) work. Windwalker is going to be limited to part of that back and forth talent synergy, i.e. Chi Burst has no affect on WDP and vice versa, because of Combo Strikes being the end all of everything. What I mean by that is, let's say Fury for example, has Enrage for Mastery and gameplay involving staying in those windows or Demo's mini demon berserk and gameplay to summon demons while Windwalker has Combo Strikes as both Mastery and gameplay; there's an additional functionality to the spells in the aforementioned's toolkit than just damage, among other things, allowing for talents to tweak said functionalities.

However in my experience it's definitely a noticeable difference in picking all Passive talents than Active; the [insert RSK cooldown] window of nothing to use, especially with Combo Breaker, in an all Passive setup or heavy CD abilities (EE/Xuen/Serenity) while leveling.

Both Passives and Actives could be just a bit more interesting than (or while giving) flat increases without necessarily making things harder given the spec is already rather foolproofed, but....actually I don't know any buts for this one so I'll just end there.