[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Tato23]

Man i hope they continue to tune those rogues, seems like they are still unmatched in ST, enhance shamans still seem really good too. Seems like no matter how hard some of you guys try they will still destroy. Seems like we can compete with everything else though.

[Thrillhouse918]

No, when I'm able to run a dungeon again I will but.. it's dungeons. Might hop into an LFR or normal to test it in something that's a tad more real.



Chaos Cleave (or Fel Mastery; doesn't much matter) - Demon Blades (DA for demons) - Felblade (bloodlet also works, FBlood probably too) - Demon Reborn - Nemesis - Chaos Blades

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/7d4ZzYn1Wt6HcVRX/

LFR, Tormented Guardians

Chaos Cleave, DA, Bloodlet, SR, FE, MoTG, FBarrage

Main competition DH (pug, so no idea of his skill level, but he was doing fairly well and doing some smart talent swapping):

Chaos Cleave, DA, Fblood, SR, Nemesis, DR, CBlades (Ursoc)

Fel Mastery, Prepared, Felblade, SR, Momentum, DR, CBlades (DoN)

BF, Prepared, Bloodlet, SR, Momentum, MoTG, Demonic (Cenarius)


As expected, I got blown away on Ursoc (ST fight). Just can't compete with that.

However, on AoE (Cenarius) I was able to beat a semi-standard momentum build (!) as well as a non-standard Cblades build. That was not really expected and is a bit intriguing.



Personal conclusions: Fuck FBarrage. It's damage is low as hell, unless there's a lot of AoE, and the recharge is the slowest in existence. Feels nasty. The first is to be expected as it IS an aoe ability, but the recharge rate is criminal. Video that goes with the logs will be up later tonight.

So outside of using Momentum, is there any build where you can use Demonic?

[Vanyali]

So outside of using Momentum, is there any build where you can use Demonic?

You can use it with Nemesis. Hell, you can use it with the FE / Blet build as well. It just syncs up *really* well with momentum so defaults to that.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Personal conclusions: Fuck FBarrage. It's damage is low as hell, unless there's a lot of AoE, and the recharge is the slowest in existence. Feels nasty. The first is to be expected as it IS an aoe ability, but the recharge rate is criminal. Video that goes with the logs will be up later tonight.

2000% AP Chaos Damage at 5 charges is low as hell? Huh? Not to mention it's resource free (well, sans the recharge time if you're going through a proc famine i reckon).

Color me surprised it's good for AoE. Perhaps, like Blade Dance, that is what it's meant to be used for? :O

Even then though, I'll ask the same question I've been asking without any solid answer (that I've seen). Do you feel the appropriate approach to helping the talent feel better in practice would be to reduce the recharge time significantly or simply increase the proc rate? Or would reducing the number of charges needed to optimally use the ability do as well?

[Vanyali]

2000% AP Chaos Damage at 5 charges is low as hell? Huh? Not to mention it's resource free (well, sans the recharge time if you're going through a proc famine i reckon).

Color me surprised it's good for AoE. Perhaps, like Blade Dance, that is what it's meant to be used for? :O

Even then though, I'll ask the same question I've been asking without any solid answer (that I've seen). Do you feel the appropriate approach to helping the talent feel better in practice would be to reduce the recharge time significantly or simply increase the proc rate? Or would reducing the number of charges needed to optimally use the ability do as well?

Damage overall. Mostly due to the recharge phase. You'll see when I upload the video

Increase the proc rate would be fine, the recharge is okay. Increase what it can proc from if necessary because it seems to be low as hell in the long run. Decreasing the charge to 3 from 5 for max damage miiight work (i seemed to sit at 3 waiting forever) if they wanted to go that way.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Damage overall. Mostly due to the recharge phase. You'll see when I upload the video

Increase the proc rate would be fine, the recharge is okay. Increase what it can proc from if necessary because it seems to be low as hell in the long run. Decreasing the charge to 3 from 5 for max damage miiight work (i seemed to sit at 3 waiting forever) if they wanted to go that way.

OH, okay. I didn't realize you were talking overall. My bad.

[Deleted]

do you use fel rush to start a fight with momentum


or is it better to build fury with DB, then get momentum and chaos strike?



Update:

Also with momentum build is it worth working in Blur to prevent downtime?

lets assume 100% momentum uptime is the goal.

1) FR
2)FR
3)VR
4)FR

2 sec downtime on momentum here.

unless you use Blur here and gain 2 fel rush charges to prevent that 2 second downtime. is that worth it?

[Deleted]

Use Fel Rush then Felblade. While you're building up Fury you'll almost get 1 charge back.

[grizzlysaurusrex]

Personal conclusions: Fuck FBarrage. It's damage is low as hell, unless there's a lot of AoE, and the recharge is the slowest in existence. Feels nasty. The first is to be expected as it IS an aoe ability, but the recharge rate is criminal. Video that goes with the logs will be up later tonight.

Thanks for logging and slugging through LFR. It's a much smaller percentage of your damage than I expected it to be. You are casting it more often than I expected you to for fight lengths though.

After a quick glance, I'm not seeing in the logs what triggers gaining charges though. I didn't see anything in my combat log while playing and was just going off the action bar, so I'm curious what the event actually looks like in game. Maybe just not looking hard enough? I can look again tomorrow.

The damage definitely needs to be higher for what it is though (either more scaling or using it more often). I'm feeling it should probably proc off of Blade Dance damage at least.

[Vanyali]

Thanks for logging and slugging through LFR. It's a much smaller percentage of your damage than I expected it to be. You are casting it more often than I expected you to for fight lengths though.

After a quick glance, I'm not seeing in the logs what triggers gaining charges though. I didn't see anything in my combat log while playing and was just going off the action bar, so I'm curious what the event actually looks like in game. Maybe just not looking hard enough? I can look again tomorrow.

The damage definitely needs to be higher for what it is though (either more scaling or using it more often). I'm feeling it should probably proc off of Blade Dance damage at least.

I don't think it has any indication for when it gains a charge other than a number going up. Highly annoying :B


IIRC from the theorycraft thread it *should* proc from BD, just not EB.

[grizzlysaurusrex]

I don't think it has any indication for when it gains a charge other than a number going up. Highly annoying :B


IIRC from the theorycraft thread it *should* proc from BD, just not EB.

Ya I was hoping it would show up in logs somewhere that didn't show up in the in game logs but I guess that doesn't make sense considering warcraft logs is based off in game logs...

I don't remember exactly what they said in the theorycraft thread. It did sound like they expected BD to cause issues with it though from what I remember so it probably should proc it. Especially since I've gotten charges from Fel Rush. Probably/hopefully just a bug.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

I'm gonna go ahead and make @Vanyali mad by saying: Wouldn't it be cool if: Vengeful Retreat refilled all the charges?

#fitemeIRLVanyali

[Deleted]

I don't think it has any indication for when it gains a charge other than a number going up. Highly annoying :B


IIRC from the theorycraft thread it *should* proc from BD, just not EB.

Where can I find the theorycraft thread, if you mind me asking =P

[Vanyali]

I'm gonna go ahead and make @Vanyali mad by saying: Wouldn't it be cool if: Vengeful Retreat refilled all the charges?

#fitemeIRLVanyali

I'll kill u m8, i swear on me mum.

Ya I was hoping it would show up in logs somewhere that didn't show up in the in game logs but I guess that doesn't make sense considering warcraft logs is based off in game logs...

I don't remember exactly what they said in the theorycraft thread. It did sound like they expected BD to cause issues with it though from what I remember so it probably should proc it. Especially since I've gotten charges from Fel Rush. Probably/hopefully just a bug.

I'm wondering if it's not showing up as a "resource" and WL isn't setup to pick it up like that. It'd make sense.

Where can I find the theorycraft thread, if you mind me asking =P

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20743504316

The problem is.. I have no idea what page it's on

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

@Vanyali is the crux of the issue really just that you can't use Fel Barrage enough? Roughly how often do you think you should be able to use it?

[Vanyali]

@Vanyali is the crux of the issue really just that you can't use Fel Barrage enough? Roughly how often do you think you should be able to use it?

Basically, yes. It's on a ~1min CD, realistically, and it doesn't do enough damage for that. For the damage it does I'd expect it to be about 30s.

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Found the Fbarrage quote:

Currently 10% chance, 1.5sec ICD, on any harmful ability dealing damage.

NOTE: Demon Hunters are still brand new and untuned, so do not be surprised if the exact proc logic changes when we get to tuning. (My tuning-spider-sense tingles looking at that formula, and thinking of AoE situations.)

and a relevant reply by Pawketsz for searching for it:

This doesn't seem right. Do you mean on any damage dealing attack? Because Eye Beam, itself, and maybe others can't trigger it.

Edit: Found the proc spell (222703). Apparently it only procs off of Yellow Melee and AoE Hostile Spells. Guess Eye Beam is neither of those or something.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

I think it'd be kinda rad if you could get guaranteed charges from any kind of soul fragments. Would give the ability one of those talents it pairs well with (like Momentum and Prepared).

[Deleted]

I'll kill u m8, i swear on me mum.



I'm wondering if it's not showing up as a "resource" and WL isn't setup to pick it up like that. It'd make sense.



http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20743504316

The problem is.. I have no idea what page it's on

Thanks mate =)

[Sonrisa]

Currently most of you are very unhappy about Eye Beam beeing to weak and not good enough for single target. I don't know the exact calculations that were done, but my question is: Is this also still true in case you got Chaos Vision and Anguish of the Deceiver? 15% more damage on Eye Beam + Stacking exploding Debuff seems very viable on ST to me. That would also explain why baseline Eye Beam is not sooo good atm.

So I run some numbers with my gear (which shouldn't matter much since they both scale exactly the same with mastery) to estimate where we stand. Most important factor to decide whether we even want to cast the spell is damage per point of fury, which depends on your crit level:

Eye Beam
40% crit 10.6 damage/fury
50% crit 10.8 damage/fury
60% crit 11.0 damage/fury

As you can see it doesn't scale very well with crit, since EB crits by default and crit is only being used by Anguish, which in turn deals significantly less damage than the actual Eye Beam.

We need something to compare which in this case is the contender for spending that fury
Chaos Strike
40% crit 8.75 damage/fury
50% crit 10 damage/fury
60% crit 11.4 damage/fury

Chaos strikes scales very well with crit, for obvious reasons, and at ~50% crit you might want to consider not using EB since you are losing on autos and you self CC, while it's probably a wash on damage. With crit numbers over 50% Chaos Strike easily wins against EB. This numbers also suggest that you never want to use EB during meta (which makes sense truth be told).

As a final note I personally feel that having this high crit percentages so early on in the expansion, while fun, makes absolutely no sense from a scaling perspective, but that's another matter entirely, and is another thing they might decide on changing before release.

[Butosai]

As a final note I personally feel that having this high crit percentages so early on in the expansion, while fun, makes absolutely no sense from a scaling perspective, but that's another matter entirely, and is another thing they might decide on changing before release.

they are gonna release 1 expansion per year, which means we will only have 2 or 3 tiers. They must already have a full team working on the next expansion, seeing how long it takes for them to finish one. Clearly they haven't lied again.