Queue: "If I can't click 1 button, I won't participate"

[Jaylock]

Because they don't have to justify themselves to people like you?

They don't have to justify themselves to anyone. They can simply create their own group.

Capish?

[Greenmagoo]

All this talk of justification. If one does not have to justify their behavior then they should not expect others to justify their behavior to them. At the end of the day if ones behavior is pushing players way from wanting to play with them then they should learn to stop pointing fingers at others.

[Jaylock]

Nope. It has not, if you are referring to the game in general, it never was special or hard. The difference is that, using your analogy, is what you though was special that only a few people can do turns out to be rather easy and everyone can do. So your golf course now has more people playing.

WoW was never hard to begin with. It was made to be easy and certains features were added to improve the flow and convenience.

If you are referring to raiding, again that is wrong. Because, using your analogy, they build an easier golf course next to yours but you are still complaining about it. What is so wrong with other people playing a different version of the raid to you? If Blizzard downscaled all the raids then I can understand the resentment. But they have not.

This sounds to me all about jealously. Jealously that other people can now also enter a raid that you considered to be reserved of special players. I am in no mean a skillful player and never considered to be one. Raiding was something special. So I was surprised at how untrue that was. The most difficult aspect of raiding to me was not the skill. It was about time. Do players have the time to raid. Even for my guild, the RL have said the most difficult part of finding people was their attitude and availability. Skills and gear comes later. It can be improved on.

Granted that we are not a Mythic raiding guild or chasing server first. We are just a regular mixed of normal and heroic raiders.

Let me say this one more time:

When you add easier versions of the same content for the sake of "convenience" the content itself loses some if not all of its appeal.

Players (especially the more casual ones) get bored quickly after they have "completed all the content". These players usually unsub and start to whine and complain about "nothing to do" after they killed the last boss of the raid tier. Why is this? Because the game is TOO convenient.

I get that convenience is something that should be in the game, but it should only be there to a degree. Allowing all players to simply click a button and they have to do nothing else; 1) the game automatically finds 24 other strangers and puts you all together in a group, 2) the game then ports you INSIDE the dungeon or raid, 3) the game scales the difficulty of the bosses from an original design to a shell / husk of what it should be, 4) the game stacks buffs on you and the other 24 players for every wipe the group goes through to ensure victory at all costs.

Those 4 points constitutes TOO MUCH convenience. If I am a new player, or even a washed up casual who has been playing for years, what incentive do I have to continue playing the game, if in my eyes, i've completed all the content? Why would I continue trying to "see the content" but just on increased difficulties?

The point is, given the increased convenience we have from cross realm group play, group finder and other tools, keeping a queue system, especially for raids is really of no value anymore, and I honestly think it deteriorates the game and causes people to unsub faster due to quicker burnout.

I consider myself a casual player. I set aside 6 hours a week to raid with an organized group. The carrot on a stick and wanting to see the REAL end boss of the expansion is what drives me to play on higher difficulties. If there were no LFR, and I was a less motivated player, but I still wanted to "see the content" I have several other avenues at my fingertips to "see the content" through flex normal difficulty, which is in no way "hardcore". The fact that in previous expansions that I couldn't see the content without putting in a little effort is what kept me wanting to play the game and in turn sub to the game.

[Daethz]

Alot of people just want a RPG with consistent content updates.
Which don't exist.
Single Player RPG + Global Chatbox + Monthlyish content patches and yearly expansions = dream game.

[Osmeric]

Let me say this one more time:

When you add easier versions of the same content for the sake of "convenience" the content itself loses some if not all of its appeal.

This is bullshit. The sad fact that you can't wrap your mind around is that while doing content that is easier loses some appeal, not doing the content at all causes it to lose ALL of its appeal.

Easier versions of content have been added because it has proved necessary to get people to be finish the content.

At this point the usual hardcore argument has been "but they COULD have stepped up their game". Even if this were true, it's utterly irrelevant. What determines how satisfied people are is what they end up doing, not what they might have done but didn't.

[Foj]

At this point the usual hardcore argument has been "but they COULD have stepped up their game". Even if this were true, it's utterly irrelevant. What determines how satisfied people are is what they end up doing, not what they might have done but didn't.

Some people will never understand, until it hits them personally: I could have stepped up my game, but I do enough hard shit and put up with enough interpersonal drama in my day job ... and what I want is to play a fucking game, not work on it and listen to even more hours of childish chatter on a headset.

If I make a major fuckup in my day job, which is entirely possible if I don't pay attention when I'm typing important things, I directly interfere with a profit center that takes in $100k revenue per day with a team of about 20 people. That combined with generally adulting the rest of the day is enough stress and as far as I'm concerned that's sufficient "stepping up."

There are times when you want a challenge because the rest of your life is something like flipping burgers or sweeping a laundromat or taking 5 years off from college. Or maybe you're one of those folks who works a high pressure job on Wall Street during the day, and rages like a motherfucker at raiders another 20 hours a week. (I knew one of those guys. He sold a company to Yahoo! before he was 30.) But in general they call it a game because it's supposed to be a recreational activity.

[Cynep]

This is bullshit. The sad fact that you can't wrap your mind around is that while doing content that is easier loses some appeal, not doing the content at all causes it to lose ALL of its appeal.

Easier versions of content have been added because it has proved necessary to get people to be finish the content.

At this point the usual hardcore argument has been "but they COULD have stepped up their game". Even if this were true, it's utterly irrelevant. What determines how satisfied people are is what they end up doing, not what they might have done but didn't.

No, this is bullshit.
Not doing content loses its appeal for low-skill players but motivates average+ players. Doing content that's too easy demotivates average+ players and reduces that game's appeal to them. If the devs don't want to choose their audience because they're greedy like they actually are with WoW, they need to provide content for baddies and they need to make sure average+ players feel good when they inevitably compare themselves to the baddies.

"Everyone should finish content on max difficulty" is really stupid motto. I won't kill Archi Mythic before major nerfs, I'm fine with that. If Blizzard handed me last boss on the silver platter, I'd unsub and look for a game where I can actually play instead of the game playing itself for me.

[Redroniksre]

No, this is bullshit.
Not doing content loses its appeal for low-skill players but motivates average+ players. Doing content that's too easy demotivates average+ players and reduces that game's appeal to them. If the devs don't want to choose their audience because they're greedy like they actually are with WoW, they need to provide content for baddies and they need to make sure average+ players feel good when they inevitably compare themselves to the baddies.

"Everyone should finish content on max difficulty" is really stupid motto. I won't kill Archi Mythic before major nerfs, I'm fine with that. If Blizzard handed me last boss on the silver platter, I'd unsub and look for a game where I can actually play instead of the game playing itself for me.

Not all Average+ players feel motivated. Hell i am above average technically and i am not motivated in the slightest. Even if something is "off limits" to casual scum, it still doesnt motivate me, nor does inspecting peoples gear (which i don't do unless they are shit).

[Cynep]

Not all Average+ players feel motivated. Hell i am above average technically and i am not motivated in the slightest. Even if something is "off limits" to casual scum, it still doesnt motivate me, nor does inspecting peoples gear (which i don't do unless they are shit).

No, not all. And not all low-skill players whine that they can't autowin, I personally know a few who are just playing at their own pace. Some people are just happier than others. We're talking about those who aren't


P.S. And I didn't mean "inspecting peoples gear", I meant when someone doing harder content just stops and thinks "OK, I won in a harder mode than Bob, the game should congratulate me somehow in some meaningful way?" ... not everyone pays attention to achievements.

[Osmeric]

No, this is bullshit.
Not doing content loses its appeal for low-skill players but motivates average+ players. Doing content that's too easy demotivates average+ players and reduces that game's appeal to them.

None of that contradicts what I was saying. You should construct your arguments more carefully before you label something "bullshit".

"Everyone should finish content on max difficulty" is really stupid motto.

It's especially stupid because you just made it up. In particular, Blizzard obviously doesn't adhere to this motto. And it's not what Jaylock was attacking.

[Cynep]

None of that contradicts what I was saying. You should construct your arguments more carefully before you label something "bullshit".

Okay, let's clarify. Jaylock was attacking his own targets, I attacked this first and foremost:

This is bullshit. The sad fact that you can't wrap your mind around is that while doing content that is easier loses some appeal, not doing the content at all causes it to lose ALL of its appeal.

Easier versions of content have been added because it has proved necessary to get people to be finish the content.

Emphasis mine. My point in the post you quoted is that while trying to broaden their consumer base by including super-easy content for baddies, Blizzard really really needs to not alienate their existing consumer base by giving the baddies rewards equal to average+ players, or else the average+ players will feel insulted with all the consequences.

In other words, if in your quest to appeal to some segment, you lose your appeal to another segment, you're not really winning.

[Redroniksre]

Okay, let's clarify. Jaylock was attacking his own targets, I attacked this first and foremost:

Emphasis mine. My point in the post you quoted is that while trying to broaden their consumer base by including super-easy content for baddies, Blizzard really really needs to not alienate their existing consumer base by giving the baddies rewards equal to average+ players, or else the average+ players will feel insulted with all the consequences.

In other words, if in your quest to appeal to some segment, you lose your appeal to another segment, you're not really winning.

Problem is, you can never appeal to everyone. That kind of flip flop logic is what got us here in the first place. Who cares what rewards the baddies get? As long as it is at a slower pace then the average+ gets. Better gear won't make a bad player better, but it does hold the bad players attention longer.

[kary]

On the beta now, they re-introduced tier to LFR.
Granted I'm still against this decision, but...
LFR tier is lower itemlevel and harder to attain than Mythic+0 drops. I would prefer they didn't have tier, but absolute dumpster stats/ilvl is a compromise I can deal with. Casual baddies get several itemsets to choose from, all of them mediocre.

They get to collect sets and (hopefully) not whine, we still get to do 2x their damage. I'm okay with that.

chances are that they'll whine about the itemlevel, though

[Osmeric]

On the beta now, they re-introduced tier to LFR.
Granted I'm still against this decision, but...
LFR tier is lower itemlevel and harder to attain than Mythic+0 drops. I would prefer they didn't have tier, but absolute dumpster stats/ilvl is a compromise I can deal with. Casual baddies get several itemsets to choose from, all of them mediocre.

What LFR tier will do is make it easier to move up from LFR to N. As it stands, in WoD, LFR players had a double handicap of lower ilvl and shitty "ghetto tier" that enlarged the performance gap.

(Well, also the LFR-player skill gap on top of that, so triple handicap.)

[Badl1fe]

Because I do not want to waste time sucking up to people like you. The queue is convenient and more importantly, impartial. I do not have to go through a examination by some random person to be judge if they consider I am good enough to join them in their little adventure.

Until people like you stop looking down at other players who you feel inferior, I much prefer to use the random queue.

So instead of actually getting to play, you let others judge you? How about you get off your butt and make your own group. If I put a group together I can require whatever I want. When you put together a group, you can have a free for all love fest with any ilvl you want. Sorry that a lot of people like myself want a higher ilvl group for mythic. It's farm content and I just want to get through it. If you want a ilvl 650 normal, feel free to head up that group.

Literally every time I see someone complain about not getting into a group I just wanna shout. You put your own limitations on yourself. Don't get mad when you dont meet others needs/expectations. Make your own group, and heck if it's normal you don't need comms.

[kary]

What LFR tier will do is make it easier to move up from LFR to N. As it stands, in WoD, LFR players had a double handicap of lower ilvl and shitty "ghetto tier" that enlarged the performance gap.

(Well, also the LFR-player skill gap on top of that, so triple handicap.)

You can pug hfc normal in non set epics. People who are generally dumpster tier players do dumpster tier dps no matter what gear they are in.
As far as HFC goes, generally people only really look for ilvl, not set bonuses, because you can't see those things in the UI anyway.

So there is no handicap other than the initial, omnipresent player handicap.

[Greenmagoo]

You can pug hfc normal in non set epics. People who are generally dumpster tier players do dumpster tier dps no matter what gear they are in.
As far as HFC goes, generally people only really look for ilvl, not set bonuses, because you can't see those things in the UI anyway.

So there is no handicap other than the initial, omnipresent player handicap.

I have gotten in Normal mode PuGs with LFR gear. I have even spent less time in a full clear PuG group including finding the group than I have sitting in an LFR queue and clearing all the wings. That is something that needs to get fixed in regards to LFR because it kills the whole time argument and also keeps LFR inaccessible to those who have no issue doing smaller queue based content like dungeons.

Tier gear and a few item level increases is not going to all of a sudden get players into the more selective groups as said group are just going to raise their requirements. Even in WotLK where someone running dungeons could get full normal mode tier gear and vendor gear was players complaining about group requirements being out of their reach and in turn demand for better gear thinking it would resolve their issue. I point to the active discussion in the thread titled 'Is ilvl cancer for wow'.

Then you have those who argue LFR is too easy for them and does not prepare them properly for normal as if the sole purpose of LFR was train and shove players into organized raiding. We sit here now in a case where even the easy LFR are groups dealing with having to wipe many times to stack determination in order to clear a wing. Queues for DPS are still hardly casual friendly and even worse back in MoP when LFR was even harder. LFR is there for players to be able to experience the content even those who cannot clear silver proving grounds.

[kary]

I have gotten in Normal mode PuGs with LFR gear. I have even spent less time in a full clear PuG group including finding the group than I have sitting in an LFR queue and clearing all the wings. That is something that needs to get fixed in regards to LFR because it kills the whole time argument and also keeps LFR inaccessible to those who have no issue doing smaller queue based content like dungeons.

Tier gear and a few item level increases is not going to all of a sudden get players into the more selective groups as said group are just going to raise their requirements. Even in WotLK where someone running dungeons could get full normal mode tier gear and vendor gear was players complaining about group requirements being out of their reach and in turn demand for better gear thinking it would resolve their issue. I point to the active discussion in the thread titled 'Is ilvl cancer for wow'.

Then you have those who argue LFR is too easy for them and does not prepare them properly for normal as if the sole purpose of LFR was train and shove players into organized raiding. We sit here now in a case where even the easy LFR are groups dealing with having to wipe many times to stack determination in order to clear a wing. Queues for DPS are still hardly casual friendly and even worse back in MoP when LFR was even harder. LFR is there for players to be able to experience the content even those who cannot clear silver proving grounds.

LFR in MoP sorta trained you... but people didn't improve over a year so they went to WoD model where you can basically solo end bosses.
LFR, at least on the beta as is, tuned for 835 or 825, can't recall, was absolute faceroll.
But what's great is that you can be a queue only player and get everything you want, I suppose.

[Osmeric]

LFR in MoP sorta trained you... but people didn't improve over a year so they went to WoD model where you can basically solo end bosses.
LFR, at least on the beta as is, tuned for 835 or 825, can't recall, was absolute faceroll.

How was normal mode tuning on the PTR, compared to WoD?

[Deleted]

Interact with other players? Sure!

Group/Co-op with those random players? That isn't very cool for me. I mean, who are those people? Playing in groups is fun only if I know the group - my friends and family are cool groups to do stuff with. Randoms on a mmo-rpg? Cooperating with strategy with those people isn't optimal. Lessening such... boring cooperations is beneficial to me. For example, I have nothing against PvP wiith other randoms in a MMO - that's a cool interaction.

Your friends were strangers once.