[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Rewyn]

It has a rather negative effect on Seraphim which, as far as I saw, seemed *just* reasonable enough in terms of its AM cost for dps uptime. Not sure about now.

[Gallahadd]

Telling them it needs to be slightly better doesn't mean you're correct honestly, Protection paladins are in a great spot as far as viability, easily top 2 tanks, i'd go as far as saying probably top 1 atm. Can't really make an argument that the cd reduction is for anything other than that either.

Now maybe. But what about two or three patches down the line? If you check the spreadsheet you'll notice something rather unfun.

Our scaling Took a rather serious hit.

So sure, were top two, maybe top tank...NOW. But what about in two or here patches time when we're in full BiS gear... And nothing much has changed. Tbh I'd rather take a hit to our DR now, in exchange for a huge buff to our scaling, so that I know by the time I'm in tier awesomesauce, I'll actually feel noticeably stronger.

[Proof]

or maybe add time off to GC procs.

Legitimate question, Why does AS still glow on Crusader procs when it doesn't do anything any more? Between hitting J on cooldown, keeping Consecrate down to buff to LotP/SotR and maintaining BH debuff on attackers, there's barely a global to spend on AS unless the artifact absorb turns out to be very good (just now reaching that point on my Artifact). If it's any less powerful than the tier 18 set bonus, it practically becomes a trap to hit the glowing button if you have any one of several better spells available.

[Bearygood]

Now maybe. But what about two or three patches down the line? If you check the spreadsheet you'll notice something rather unfun.

Our scaling Took a rather serious hit.

So sure, were top two, maybe top tank...NOW. But what about in two or here patches time when we're in full BiS gear... And nothing much has changed. Tbh I'd rather take a hit to our DR now, in exchange for a huge buff to our scaling, so that I know by the time I'm in tier awesomesauce, I'll actually feel noticeably stronger.

Right now I see warriors surviving far better than paladins to be fair

[Wimzer]

Can you guys offer any tips for surviving the deathcaller at the start of phase 2 Archi? I'll have 3 or 4 stacks, and the debuff falls off. If I use GoaK, I won't have it for the overfiend + deathcaller + Archi later. Or any other M Archi tips? Here are the logs, and I know I'm doing awful the last few pulls.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Cv9qAn26NjKDpdQF

[Deleted]

Can you guys offer any tips for surviving the deathcaller at the start of phase 2 Archi? I'll have 3 or 4 stacks, and the debuff falls off. If I use GoaK, I won't have it for the overfiend + deathcaller + Archi later. Or any other M Archi tips? Here are the logs, and I know I'm doing awful the last few pulls.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Cv9qAn26NjKDpdQF

Cast DP right before Archi finishes casting Death Brand. Execution Sentence yourself as it ends, use one WoG cast then pop AD. Call for Life Cocoon when AD pops/falls off. DP to finish it off if the DC is still alive, while weaving in WoG with 2+ Bastion whenever you dip below 50%. Should the DC live longer than 38 seconds, just use Divine Shield for the 6 seconds immunity and tell your DPS to shape it up.

On the 4th DC, replace AD with GoAK and LC with PS. You shouldn't ever take the Overfiend, Archi and the DC all at once - only the DC. Your co-tank needs to take the Overfiend and Archi at this point. Using your Health Pot and 2nd Pot on any of the DC's are fine, there's little to zero tank damage outside of DC's on the entire fight.

You barely utilize Externals. Your Disc has one cast of PS in 25 attempts, and your MW 2 casts of LC. Use them during DC 2 and 4, as your co-tank can easily manage them solo as a Breath Knight. You used DP 38 times in 25 pulls, use it more often, especially on DC's. Your HA usage is very poor as well - it doesn't align with much and only provides a DPS boost for the most part. You can use HA as an 18sec CD against DC's with repeated Bastion buffed WoG's.

M Archi really isn't a tricky fight as a tank, it's pretty much about surviving the DC's and not falling off on Source. Source bugs regularly (it threw off our Mistweaver last week ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ), so I've gotten into the habit of always positioning myself as if it will target me. Only dance left and right, if it's the back pattern just pop DP + CD and stand in it, WoG if it drops you below 50% somehow. I'm in a bit of a hurry so just looked very shallowly.

[Shieldi]

Anybody else with beta noticed a bug which causes consecration to do nothing? (i assume its falling through the ground or something, no graphic, no buffs/damage) been using consecrated hammer for a few days to keep my full power sotr and lotp

[celinamuna]

Anybody else with beta noticed a bug which causes consecration to do nothing? (i assume its falling through the ground or something, no graphic, no buffs/damage) been using consecrated hammer for a few days to keep my full power sotr and lotp

It's bugged.
Also lotp doesn't get benefits from standing in cons or cons hammer. (hurray 4 bugs)

[bicycle]

Can you guys offer any tips for surviving the deathcaller at the start of phase 2 Archi? I'll have 3 or 4 stacks, and the debuff falls off. If I use GoaK, I won't have it for the overfiend + deathcaller + Archi later. Or any other M Archi tips? Here are the logs, and I know I'm doing awful the last few pulls.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Cv9qAn26NjKDpdQF

On top of what Licksalot said about making sure you actually use the cooldowns available to you, including divine protection and externals from warrior/priest/retpally, you can also use divine shield bubbletaunt to reset your stacks.

[Wimzer]

Cast DP right before Archi finishes casting Death Brand. Execution Sentence yourself as it ends, use one WoG cast then pop AD. Call for Life Cocoon when AD pops/falls off. DP to finish it off if the DC is still alive, while weaving in WoG with 2+ Bastion whenever you dip below 50%. Should the DC live longer than 38 seconds, just use Divine Shield for the 6 seconds immunity and tell your DPS to shape it up.

On the 4th DC, replace AD with GoAK and LC with PS. You shouldn't ever take the Overfiend, Archi and the DC all at once - only the DC. Your co-tank needs to take the Overfiend and Archi at this point. Using your Health Pot and 2nd Pot on any of the DC's are fine, there's little to zero tank damage outside of DC's on the entire fight.

You barely utilize Externals. Your Disc has one cast of PS in 25 attempts, and your MW 2 casts of LC. Use them during DC 2 and 4, as your co-tank can easily manage them solo as a Breath Knight. You used DP 38 times in 25 pulls, use it more often, especially on DC's. Your HA usage is very poor as well - it doesn't align with much and only provides a DPS boost for the most part. You can use HA as an 18sec CD against DC's with repeated Bastion buffed WoG's.

M Archi really isn't a tricky fight as a tank, it's pretty much about surviving the DC's and not falling off on Source. Source bugs regularly (it threw off our Mistweaver last week ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ), so I've gotten into the habit of always positioning myself as if it will target me. Only dance left and right, if it's the back pattern just pop DP + CD and stand in it, WoG if it drops you below 50% somehow. I'm in a bit of a hurry so just looked very shallowly.

Thanks! I'm having trouble solo soaking the fire without a healer, so I've been saving DP for that, and then I was using HA for the first DC+archi that I tank, and then again for the overfiend+DC+Archi. I'll talk with my raidlead about getting a healer nearby and then what to do for that fire soak.

On top of what Licksalot said about making sure you actually use the cooldowns available to you, including divine protection and externals from warrior/priest/retpally, you can also use divine shield bubbletaunt to reset your stacks.

Will do. Appreciate the tips guys! I'm usually not this bad, I swear. It's just being weird not being on the boss at all sitting on my thumbs--->being hit by him and the DC at the same time.

[Deleted]

Thanks! I'm having trouble solo soaking the fire without a healer, so I've been saving DP for that, and then I was using HA for the first DC+archi that I tank, and then again for the overfiend+DC+Archi. I'll talk with my raidlead about getting a healer nearby and then what to do for that fire soak.



Will do. Appreciate the tips guys! I'm usually not this bad, I swear. It's just being weird not being on the boss at all sitting on my thumbs--->being hit by him and the DC at the same time.

I mentioned this in the second paragraph, but again: you should never be tanking more than JUST the Deathcaller. Your co-tank should ALWAYS be taking Archimonde AND the Overviend if it's up. When the Deathcaller dies, you'll take the Overfiend. The only exception is if Death Brand is cast while the Overfiend is still alive.

Regarding fire, it's up to your raid leader. We don't have tanks soaking fire, we have a Holy Pala, Disc or Hunter do it.

[Deleted]

Don't know if this discussion has happened yet, but in Legion, the Tauren passive stamina adds up to close to 100k health, and the Blood Elf passive is 1% crit + a reliable aoe silence. Which out of these two do we reckon would be the better for raiding in Legion?

I get that the gap between the two races is small, but would be good to get some opinions on it.

[Deleted]

It's bugged.
Also lotp doesn't get benefits from standing in cons or cons hammer. (hurray 4 bugs)

Specifically, the disappearing Consecration bug is that if you recast it within 3 seconds of the CD ending, the ability goes on CD but does no damage and does not apply the buff. You can compensate for it by leaving gaps between Cons casts. It's likely an issue with the implementation of the Consecration-extending Artifact trait.

[Museigen]

What kind of up time are you guys getting on SotR now? I'm leaving Blood and either going Bear or Prot Paladin, and looking at a 4.5 second duration 16 second charge CD with -1 second per judgement on it's 12 second cooldown seems like very low up time? The raw damage reduction appears high but with a seemingly low up time doesn't that just make you squishy outside of the window and thus very spikey in terms of damage intake?

I doubt I'll raid much but I'll likely get into the greater rift dungeon thingies, so I suppose I'm asking for a more precise answer on SotR uptime / damage intake as well as a general feeling of bear vs prot paladin in a 5 man enviornment.

[Romoreas]

What kind of up time are you guys getting on SotR now? I'm leaving Blood and either going Bear or Prot Paladin, and looking at a 4.5 second duration 16 second charge CD with -1 second per judgement on it's 12 second cooldown seems like very low up time? The raw damage reduction appears high but with a seemingly low up time doesn't that just make you squishy outside of the window and thus very spikey in terms of damage intake?

I doubt I'll raid much but I'll likely get into the greater rift dungeon thingies, so I suppose I'm asking for a more precise answer on SotR uptime / damage intake as well as a general feeling of bear vs prot paladin in a 5 man enviornment.

This is Luminara's spread sheet for crit/haste values and SoTR uptime:

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KVeUNbEo32FtaNCySFJx-ClMOltkpn56jhZ_cW8woLo/edit#gid=1373645603

[celinamuna]

This is Luminara's

y u do me like dat :'( <3

[Museigen]

Thanks for the link. Considering that up time does damage intake feel spikey? It would seem like your healers would easily notice you taking + or - a significant chunk of damage half the time. Being a nice smooth source of damage has always been a thing I aimed for and I'm not sure having a large variance in incoming damage would feel right. Though looking at other tanks, it looks like most don't really walk around with 100% up time on their AM, so is that just how tanks are in legion?

[Romoreas]

y u do me like dat :'( <3

We have no Theck, u b new theck? Please make elaborate math posts that uses advanced math that I haven't used since college.

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Thanks for the link. Considering that up time does damage intake feel spikey? It would seem like your healers would easily notice you taking + or - a significant chunk of damage half the time. Being a nice smooth source of damage has always been a thing I aimed for and I'm not sure having a large variance in incoming damage would feel right. Though looking at other tanks, it looks like most don't really walk around with 100% up time on their AM, so is that just how tanks are in legion?

In tank switch fights this isn't really a problem, Protection Paladins are still strong tanks and although our golden trait Bulwark of Order got nerfed to 20 percent absorb, I still think they could possibly tune it, imo 20 percent is overkill but either way looking at mythic raid logs that trait and even Light of the Titans provide a lot of blanket healing with very little overheal.

We will get 6 percent block chance in our artifact and if you take holyshield you will have a substantial amount of block, ever since AM became such a huge deal I think people have forgotten block is also really strong for both Paladin and Warrior, although PLD's is RNG but still 40 percent off of AA's and then if there's high magic damage, Holy Shield helps with that.

It's also easy to CD weave with Eye of Tyr 25 % DR, Ardent defender, and GoAK, plus externals when needed. You can take bubble with taunt but if you are tanking something 100 percent of the time you have the choice going Knight Templar that gives you a 20 % DR for 3 seconds on a 22.5 second CD. There's also Blessing of Spellwarding which will be uselful on a lot of fights.

All of that combined with Light of the Protector as our heal makes our toolkit completely fine imo, and we have proper ways to smooth damage or heal it outside of SoTR window.

[Deleted]

We have no Theck, u b new theck? Please make elaborate math posts that uses advanced math that I haven't used since college

I think he meant his Paladin is called Liminara, not Luminara.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Is there consensus yet on Holy Shield vs. Consecrated Hammer? For DPS? Survivability?

Being able to block spells and generate passive damage sounds great, but so does HoR with no CD plus the benefits of Consecration always on.

Thanks!

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Also is Seraphim scaling at all? 4881 sounds great at 100, but what about at 110?