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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    With the way artifacts work ( cannot easily switch between specs) the new longterm relevance of 5 mans, AND the fact that pve players can get a pretty good amt of gear from pvp if they work at it a little, blizzard needs to keep classes better balanced than ever before.

    *an example* I dont want to get turned down for mythic+5 5 man, because theres a blood DK available 15 ilvs lower then me, but still much better in 5 mans than any other tank.

    My pvp winrate will directly correlate to the gear i'm getting from it.

    Do you have confidence that Bliz realizes this, and will work harder on tuning this exp?
    What does your PVP winrate got to do with whether or not you get into Mythic 5 mans?? PVP has two tenths of sweet fuck all to do with how good you are in Mythic 5 mans.. All you have to worry about is whether you can bring the hurt to the dungeon bosses without making the healers life a living hell..

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by neohobeo View Post
    and your ability to read what he said will correlate directly to your intelligence.
    Well considering the OP brought PVP into the mix when the whole thing was about PVE maybe have a go at the OP?

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by neohobeo View Post
    and your ability to read what he said will correlate directly to your intelligence.
    I know exactly what he said. if he wants better gear, he can get better at winning

  3. #23
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    Nope, never gonna happen. There always gonna be bad specs for 5ppl that perform good in other aspects of a game.
    It is silly to expect balance wonders from Blizzard.
    retired raiding shadow priest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    WoW will never die. They will be back up to 12m+ subs when legion hits, and wont fall below 10m for the duration of the expansion. You can mark my words on that.

  4. #24
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    perfect Balance will never happen. Too many variables in an MMO with now 13 classes and 38 specs.

    Some classes scale better with secondaries and become stronger later in expac, some are stronger at the start and flatline with stats. All classes/specs can do top content though.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by wing5wong View Post
    Your winrate will correlate directly with your ability, not your gear.
    Yes and no. In a fight between equally skilled players, the most complete Artifact will have the advantage. Since your artifact progression should progress alongside your actual gear progression, it's a reasonable thing to say. Like take Ret for example. In PvP, Divine Tempest is pretty lacklustre, you can't guarantee that you'll be able to hit all 3 opponents and even if you do, you will break soft CC like incapacitates and possibly fears. But taking the trait increases Divine Storm's damage by 20%. If I've spent 19 points to get Wake of Ashes and Echo of the Highlord (Which is the top end of what you get from levelling, I believe?) and I go up against someone who's also go Divine Tempest, he's also going to have 45% more Judgement damage (Which our Mastery also increases, so it's going to be a pretty heavy hitting ability), 7.5s increased duration on Avenging Wrath/Crusade and 45% more healing with our only self healing tool, Flash of Light.

    That's a huge deficit that's going to be hard to out play, and many other classes will suffer from the same problem. Unless they go back and actually prevent your Artifact's traits from affecting PvP, but that again punishes certain classes, like Ret, because their spec playstyle and smoothness is tied to their artifacts.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel SnackyCakes View Post
    perfect Balance will never happen. Too many variables in an MMO with now 13 classes and 38 specs.

    Some classes scale better with secondaries and become stronger later in expac, some are stronger at the start and flatline with stats. All classes/specs can do top content though.
    This is true but I think Blizzard should focus more on balancing the specs through hotfixes, even multiple times during a patch. Some DPS specs being ~20% or more behind others in almost all situations is a disgrace.

  7. #27
    They said that in battleground all are scaled to templates they balance, separately from the rest of the world. Only place where pvp gear matter is world pvp, so anything not in a battleground/arena dungeon.

    So in short, it's all up to your class knowledge and skill.
    Last edited by Vladinator; 2016-07-03 at 12:52 PM.

  8. #28
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orochiro View Post
    This is true but I think Blizzard should focus more on balancing the specs through hotfixes, even multiple times during a patch. Some DPS specs being ~20% or more behind others in almost all situations is a disgrace.
    The only issue with this, is say at 980 ilvl fury warriors suddenly go from 9th dps to 2nd because of an abundance of say Mastery, then Blizzard nerfs their mastery to keep them balanced at 980 ilvl and brings them down to 4th or so, than all Fury warriors below the breakpoint which brings them from 9th to 2nd suffer even more and end up being 13th until they can somehow get the gear to get to 4th again.

    It's why tuning constantly during a tier outside of extreme cases is ill-advised and why some specs are often seen as "OP" in late expansions after being mediocre/average for most. since if they nerf the people that are strong in high ilvl gear it ruins the people in lesser gear even more.

    A good example is WW Monks in MoP, They had the trinket Rune of Re-origination which made them incredibly strong when they had high ilvl stats. So Blizzard nerfed them hard. Which made Monks with Rune more in-line with others but made any Monk without it drop huge amounts of DPS and become nearly unwanted in any raids unless you managed to get the Trinket.

  9. #29
    I'm absolutely 100% confident that pvp will be as equally 'balanced' as usual.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel SnackyCakes View Post
    The only issue with this, is say at 980 ilvl fury warriors suddenly go from 9th dps to 2nd because of an abundance of say Mastery, then Blizzard nerfs their mastery to keep them balanced at 980 ilvl and brings them down to 4th or so, than all Fury warriors below the breakpoint which brings them from 9th to 2nd suffer even more and end up being 13th until they can somehow get the gear to get to 4th again.
    Once more, in English.

  11. #31
    Am I the only one that feels like class balance is tied too tightly to Artifact? That seems the kinda stuff that will fuck (even more) the whole 1~100 leveling thing.

  12. #32
    they will not.

    the past shows they push things forward a much, combined with big marketing offensive, before live. but afterwards letting things alone. Warlords was the absurd top of that. But also in other xpacs they showed that after launch things are less important than before.

    they have literally factor 10 or more to balance with following new facts:
    - more complex and rotation-wise talents
    - more differed specs
    - artifacts
    - relics
    - many more sources of power
    - gear diversity
    - ppl can not easily switch specs to the same maxed-out state

    or in short: they create themselfes a balance hell. when i combine this and what i said in the first words, i am very feared of Legion. i am sure there will be ppl having a hard time and are heavily disapointed, while sitting on a broken or low spec and have to deal with it.

    i see no future were blizz constantly balance things out. this never happened in the past. they always had problems with that (and their blizzard nature, to jump between balancing extremes). in combination with what Legion is, i belive this will become a horrible nightmare, after the first 2-3 months.

    i imagine myself a vanilla-style experience, from big patch to big patch (around 6 months), where some specs are totally useless (like rets in vanilla, or druids "heal only", and so on). i expect a nightmare.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Grandork View Post
    Am I the only one that feels like class balance is tied too tightly to Artifact? That seems the kinda stuff that will fuck (even more) the whole 1~100 leveling thing.
    nope. you are not.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2016-07-03 at 03:23 PM.

  13. #33
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel SnackyCakes View Post
    The only issue with this, is say at 980 ilvl fury warriors suddenly go from 9th dps to 2nd because of an abundance of say Mastery, then Blizzard nerfs their mastery to keep them balanced at 980 ilvl and brings them down to 4th or so, than all Fury warriors below the breakpoint which brings them from 9th to 2nd suffer even more and end up being 13th until they can somehow get the gear to get to 4th again.

    It's why tuning constantly during a tier outside of extreme cases is ill-advised and why some specs are often seen as "OP" in late expansions after being mediocre/average for most. since if they nerf the people that are strong in high ilvl gear it ruins the people in lesser gear even more.

    A good example is WW Monks in MoP, They had the trinket Rune of Re-origination which made them incredibly strong when they had high ilvl stats. So Blizzard nerfed them hard. Which made Monks with Rune more in-line with others but made any Monk without it drop huge amounts of DPS and become nearly unwanted in any raids unless you managed to get the Trinket.
    Yeah, I do agree that it is difficult when it comes to specific items and when there is a large difference in ilvl from the start of an expansion into the last tier. Changing the stats/items into something that is easier to balance might make gearing really boring too. However, I think they have to solve this somehow now since they want to promote "class/spec fantasy" and the importance of choosing a main spec.
    Last edited by mmoc4d2020beea; 2016-07-03 at 03:23 PM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Do you have confidence that Bliz realizes this, and will work harder on tuning this exp?
    Maybe they realize it and do work harder on it. Strongly doubt though this turns out different than any other addon. They failed so often and this time around there are even more issues with all the shitty legendaries, ilvl swings and artifacts so I don't think better balance is going to happen. Maybe they'll manage it though to not get another wod survival but that's about all I would ever hope for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel SnackyCakes View Post
    It's why tuning constantly during a tier outside of extreme cases is ill-advised and why some specs are often seen as "OP" in late expansions after being mediocre/average for most. since if they nerf the people that are strong in high ilvl gear it ruins the people in lesser gear even more.
    Active tuning is the only way to keep up also there is no reason but the developer's unwillingness at times to take back a nerf if it happens to cause problems.

  15. #35
    Is it really only about player skill though? If player A fights player B and player A has more artifact traits and PvP talents than player B, then won't player A have the better advantage, regardless of gear? Or are traits / PvP talents "gated" like current Conquest points with the catch-up system?

    Also maybe slightly OT but: Do you get all PvP talents unlocked in rated PvP? Even if you went for prestige for example?

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Nayami View Post
    Is it really only about player skill though? If player A fights player B and player A has more artifact traits and PvP talents than player B, then won't player A have the better advantage, regardless of gear? Or are traits / PvP talents "gated" like current Conquest points with the catch-up system?

    Also maybe slightly OT but: Do you get all PvP talents unlocked in rated PvP? Even if you went for prestige for example?
    PvP rank 50 will take approximately 50k to reach, at that point you can either stay at 50 or reset your prestige, losing your Honor talents as you have to relevel up again.

    Artifact traits are tied to how much Artifact Power you obtain, so yes, if Player A has a 54/54 Weapon and Player B has an 18/54 weapon from levelling, Player A will have a selection of core class traits (EG, increased healing, lower cooldowns or specific modifiers for abilities) as well as a 15% damage increase for maxing out their final trait to 20/20.

    No idea whether Rated PvP is affected by the Honor system. I'd hope it isn't, but I'd imagine it will be because "We want Prestige to mean something".

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Grandork View Post
    Am I the only one that feels like class balance is tied too tightly to Artifact? That seems the kinda stuff that will fuck (even more) the whole 1~100 leveling thing.
    Probably why on beta and the ptr the low lvl dmg nerfs mob buffs etc are gone. But that was only 1-40 and 40-100 is still going to be worse even without it Some classes don't even get any spells past lvl 60ish at all now lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    they will not.

    the past shows they push things forward a much, combined with big marketing offensive, before live. but afterwards letting things alone. Warlords was the absurd top of that. But also in other xpacs they showed that after launch things are less important than before.

    they have literally factor 10 or more to balance with following new facts:
    - more complex and rotation-wise talents
    - more differed specs
    - artifacts
    - relics
    - many more sources of power
    - gear diversity
    - ppl can not easily switch specs to the same maxed-out state

    or in short: they create themselfes a balance hell. when i combine this and what i said in the first words, i am very feared of Legion. i am sure there will be ppl having a hard time and are heavily disapointed, while sitting on a broken or low spec and have to deal with it.

    i see no future were blizz constantly balance things out. this never happened in the past. they always had problems with that (and their blizzard nature, to jump between balancing extremes). in combination with what Legion is, i belive this will become a horrible nightmare, after the first 2-3 months.

    i imagine myself a vanilla-style experience, from big patch to big patch (around 6 months), where some specs are totally useless (like rets in vanilla, or druids "heal only", and so on). i expect a nightmare.
    Pretty much the really scary thing is the fact that is has been the longest alpha/beta they've ever done for a exp and it's so much of a trainwreck. And the fact prepatch is only matter of weeks from live and they haven't really started dmg tuning at all for how out of whack the classes are and this game has been on alpha/beta for almost 9 months now lol and they still haven't got around to it.

    And the amount of bugs still not fixed for being this close to prepatch...
    Last edited by Wow; 2016-07-03 at 05:26 PM.

  18. #38
    They wont have things balanced for launch, dmg on beta is far from done. Tbh Blizzard is pretty bad at balancing and not just WoW, but pretty much all of their games have somewhat shitty balance.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I think they said somewhere in an Q&A that they are paying some real attention to Class Balance due how the Artifact system works.

    Though i would obviously take this with a grain of salt, because in my mind, that should be the goal for any expansion.
    I think this is more damage output/mitigation/healing for target dummy standards and making sure that you don't have OP classes (arcane mages killing Fel Lord in 30-40 seconds), and less to do with situational superiority. For example, Blood DK's for CM's were sought after for the damage they deal as well as the mitigation they brought and things like mass grip for huge AoE pulls with less error/problems. Druids were still able to do them, warriors could do them, but not as effective. For raids some guilds ran that magic number of 3 DK's on mythic Xhul for the AoE grip that other classes didn't bring. I don't think things like that are going to change or find some magical balance; but, more than likely you won't have 1 class max their artifact and do 800k dps overall and a different class max theirs with a max potential of 600k.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt0193 View Post
    No idea whether Rated PvP is affected by the Honor system. I'd hope it isn't, but I'd imagine it will be because "We want Prestige to mean something".
    They are linked, meaning prestige and rated will be mutually exclusive unfortunately.
    Really dislike this implementation.

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