Resto Druid - Legion Talents

[ryklin]

yeah I mean I think there will be at least 1 fight a tier where a lower tranq cd will be useful and let you line up cd's better, but unless it lines up with something important, it probably won't be a big deal though assuming healing stays like it was this xpac, I mean yeah fight dependent talent, but I think spring blossoms is really gonna' be the go-to for most fights

and I think germination could see its use on fights where just a few people are getting huge damage like dark shamans and socrethar, or if there's a fight where you have to split off into a group of 5 I guess, but it seems mostly for pvp and dungeons (or if there's another dragon we have to heal to full hp)

but yeah spring blossoms is probably the best looking at fights blind and by far the lowest effort and most versatile, although considering the duration and size of the heal I think it'll mostly be inconsequential, but that's fine as it's still something and even extra small healing can save a life when pressed for time and mana (I also think it'll be relatively better at the start of the xpac just because it's so mana efficient)

although in pugs I might consider inner peace as a default

and I think by the end of the xpac we'll reach a point where inner peace is an expected default planned around talent for a lot of stuff, kinda' like the resto shamans with 2 charges bullshit in wod, I really think how it's respected will pretty much depend entirely around the mythic mechanics in the first tier of legion, to a point that it might just be re-worked or nerfed it it's too prevalent, but I don't know any of the boss damage patterns in legion yet, so I can't say anything about that

[Manaleaf]

I just skimmed it, but it definitely should be 583.333 mastery per 1% (that's not going to change much).

You're right this was a typo. The mastery is 350 * 1.666666667. If you redownload the WA it should reflect the change. The same link will work whenever the WA is updated. (Wago is an awesome site.)

[theburned]

Inner Peace is a completely binary talent for me.

Either you required to take it, because the encounter mechanics line up so that you can use it once every 2 minutes instead of once every 3 minutes.
Or that is not needed and there is very little reason to take it.

Spring blossoms in this tier is the only talent that pretty much guarantees higher throughput and efficiency.
Germination here isn't a bad choice, as you can trade the throughput from SB for increased flexibility with double rejuvs. Which CAN increase your throughput in the right situation, but also very well might not. Germination will be really good for a lot of fights, and trading SB can well be worth it in those cases.

Inner Peace though tends to mostly be a YES/NO choice; the only exception I can think of is if there is totally zero need for a tranq like cooldown and you just use this every 2 minutes. Maybe the 50% tranq throughput increase might be the thing for you.
But at that point it's more a question whether or not it's really effective/efficient for your group or whether you're just padding the healing meters.

Do not make the mistake to think reducing tranq cooldown by 1 minute is in anyway similar to increasing the throughput by 50%.

You are definitely right that it is a binary talent, which is either very productive or entierly useless, but even in the cases where it means you get 50% more tranq casts it rarely translates to more useful tranqs.
See krosus, its a 6 minute fight, without this talent it means you will get 2 tranqs instead of 3 tranqs, but you got a lot bigger playroom for the tranqs, wheter you use it at around 1 minute or 2 minutes you can most likely get a good 2nd tranq aswell. While with this talent you most likely have to put a significantly weaker first tranq, to be able to get the cooldown going so that you can get a 3rd tranq. While I believe this can be done pretty well on Krosus I believe it brings out a point about 2 well placed tranqs vs 3 okay-ish tranqs.

During progress a lot of the time you wont even be able to get off a 2nd time even with inner peace due to short fights, making the talent utterly useless, while other times it means you would have 2 tranqs rather than 1, which can often translate to tranq doing twice as much.

Mythic ursoc, has 40 second damage patterns lining up a lot better with 2 minute cds rather than 3 minute cds, making the talent a must, then you have fights like High botanist when you basically want a cooldown for every plasma sphere round, a 2 minute tranq can do wonders here, while also being a pretty spread out fight, so spring blossoms isnt exactly working wonders. Elerethe renferal aswell seems like a good place to pick inner peace.

Things like this leads me to believe this talent is in a pretty good spot now, it has its uses, but it wont be the go-to talent, and its not as situational as it was a few builds ago.

A tranq will very rarely be padding, rather than effective healing, the only time where it is considered padding would be fights like tyrant where the overhealing counts, it will never really pad the meters, something spring blossoms does very well, which also makes it a deceptively good talent, a lot of the healing is just there, but not necessarily that effective.

Which also brings me to a point I made on the beta forums, that germination is in a lot better spot in the t90 row, because it competes with inner peace which is situational, and spring blossoms which is basically mastery stacks and background healing, sure its higher throughput, but it won't keep your tanks alive, which often tends to be way more important when it comes to killing a boss.

[Manaleaf]

Some thoughts on I:ToL from the beta thread.

On the Topic of I:ToL, I would agree that I:ToL has lost a lot of synergy, not particularly with germination as that wasn't such a big factor in raids, but with the loss of Nature's Vigil and Heart of the Wild. Without the combine throughput these talents provided, I:ToL is only good for mana saving, but the mana saving is very meh.

at 20% haste, over the duration of I:ToL we must also cast:
1 SM
2 Lifeblooms
1 Efflo
2 WG
1 Flourish
1 Essence of G'Hanir
1.44 ClearCasting Regrowths (average)

Meaning you get ~16 rejuv's at 20% haste, saving 105,600 mana or 4.8 rejuvs.

A 3 minute cooldown to get almost 5 rejuv's is not worth the cost. The +50% -> rejuv and +33% -> WG is kinda nice, but not for a 3 minute cooldown.
Over a 3 minute period, SotF and Cult absolutely stomps on these bonuses and does so more consistently.

[theburned]

On the Topic of I:ToL, I would agree that I:ToL has lost a lot of synergy, not particularly with germination as that wasn't such a big factor in raids, but with the loss of Nature's Vigil and Heart of the Wild. Without the combine throughput these talents provided, I:ToL is only good for mana saving, but the mana saving is very meh.

at 20% haste, over the duration of I:ToL we must also cast:
1 SM
2 Lifeblooms
1 Efflo
2 WG
1 Flourish
1 Essence of G'Hanir
1.44 ClearCasting Regrowths (average)

Meaning you get ~16 rejuv's at 20% haste, saving 105,600 mana or 4.8 rejuvs.

A 3 minute cooldown to get almost 5 rejuv's is not worth the cost. The +50% -> rejuv and +33% -> WG is kinda nice, but not for a 3 minute cooldown.
Over a 3 minute period, SotF and Cult absolutely stomps on these bonuses and does so more consistently.

Now first of all there is a flat 15% healing increase to absolutely everything during ToL, you do not have to cast 2 lifeblooms, ofc the planning to do so might be a bit tricky, same goes for the efflo cast, sometimes it can be better to just cast it prior to ToL and get off one extra cast of rejuv, so you could most likely get away with one less of those casts, resulting in 1 extra rejuv cast.
Why would you not cast 3 WGs during ToL?
Neither sotf nor cult stomps out any of these bonuses, but as for providing good enough throughput for the periods you would pop ToL, aswell as providing good throughput during the downtime aswell, definitely. Here you seem to be of the opinion that you would take both SotF and cult over a 100% uptime ToL, while this is what I'm reading I can't believe you are of that opinion.

Don't get me wrong here either, I dont believe ToL is in a good state, possibly the only times you would want to pick it is if its a deathball enrage with BL and everything, bumping you up above 50% haste, aswell as having tons of stuff to heal, while also having quite an easy time prior to this. Personally I don't mind ToL being like that, but in all fairness it's not a very good talent in it's current state.

[Manaleaf]

You cannot cast 3 WG during I:ToL. It has a cast time and a 10 second duration.

But good catch on the 15% healing. Though I don't think it will make much of a difference in the big picture.

[Nevcairiel]

You cannot cast 3 WG during I:ToL. It has a cast time and a 10 second duration.

And ToL is 30 seconds. Disregarding haste for simplicity, cast one right at 0, it goes off at 1.5s, cast the second at 11.5, it goes off at 13, cast the third at 23.
Still leaves some wiggle room for flexibility too.

You don't need to fit the cooldown of the third into ToL as well

[Manaleaf]

And ToL is 30 seconds. Disregarding haste for simplicity, cast one right at 0, it goes off at 1.5s, cast the second at 11.5, it goes off at 13, cast the third at 23.
Still leaves some wiggle room for flexibility too.

You don't need to fit the cooldown of the third into ToL as well

That is correct, I forgot to count the one casted at the start. I was counting the CDs and not the actual casts.

[Nythiz]

Do not make the mistake to think reducing tranq cooldown by 1 minute is in anyway similar to increasing the throughput by 50%.

You are definitely right that it is a binary talent, which is either very productive or entierly useless, but even in the cases where it means you get 50% more tranq casts it rarely translates to more useful tranqs.
See krosus, its a 6 minute fight, without this talent it means you will get 2 tranqs instead of 3 tranqs, but you got a lot bigger playroom for the tranqs, wheter you use it at around 1 minute or 2 minutes you can most likely get a good 2nd tranq aswell. While with this talent you most likely have to put a significantly weaker first tranq, to be able to get the cooldown going so that you can get a 3rd tranq. While I believe this can be done pretty well on Krosus I believe it brings out a point about 2 well placed tranqs vs 3 okay-ish tranqs.

During progress a lot of the time you wont even be able to get off a 2nd time even with inner peace due to short fights, making the talent utterly useless, while other times it means you would have 2 tranqs rather than 1, which can often translate to tranq doing twice as much.

Mythic ursoc, has 40 second damage patterns lining up a lot better with 2 minute cds rather than 3 minute cds, making the talent a must, then you have fights like High botanist when you basically want a cooldown for every plasma sphere round, a 2 minute tranq can do wonders here, while also being a pretty spread out fight, so spring blossoms isnt exactly working wonders. Elerethe renferal aswell seems like a good place to pick inner peace.

Things like this leads me to believe this talent is in a pretty good spot now, it has its uses, but it wont be the go-to talent, and its not as situational as it was a few builds ago.

A tranq will very rarely be padding, rather than effective healing, the only time where it is considered padding would be fights like tyrant where the overhealing counts, it will never really pad the meters, something spring blossoms does very well, which also makes it a deceptively good talent, a lot of the healing is just there, but not necessarily that effective.

Which also brings me to a point I made on the beta forums, that germination is in a lot better spot in the t90 row, because it competes with inner peace which is situational, and spring blossoms which is basically mastery stacks and background healing, sure its higher throughput, but it won't keep your tanks alive, which often tends to be way more important when it comes to killing a boss.

Ye, sorry I worded that poorly.

I just meant to say "up to 50% more tranq uses".

It's a bit hard to say how it will increase throughput. For me personally the difference between a 2 and 3 minute cooldown is pretty large from a mental point of view. Even though on paper it's a pretty simple difference, in practice I tend to pop 2 minute cooldowns (e.g. Ring / Nature's Vigil (1.5 min)), whenever I feel like it without worrying; whereas those 3 minute cooldowns seem to carry a bit more weight (again mostly a mental thing).

---------

As for the ToL discussion.
These kind of cooldown abilities are extremely hard to theorycraft.

Even though on paper it might be very weak over the course of a fight, a cooldown like that can make a difference at the time it's cast.
I completely agree that without having Nature's Vigil (or HotW) it loses a LOT of power, but I think it still has a place.

In theory SotF and Cultivation will very likely have significant higher throughput over the course of a fight. But when you pop that ToL in a edgy situation and you toss a few 8 man WGs and a few instant regrowths, you might have just saved from a wipe or might have saved having to pop other cooldowns you might need at a set moment later on in the fight.

Healing theorycrafting is a bit of a gray area in that regard. And even though there are optimal choices, there aren't that many explicitly bad choices. Unlike with most dps specs.

[theburned]

As for the ToL discussion.
These kind of cooldown abilities are extremely hard to theorycraft.

Even though on paper it might be very weak over the course of a fight, a cooldown like that can make a difference at the time it's cast.
I completely agree that without having Nature's Vigil (or HotW) it loses a LOT of power, but I think it still has a place.

In theory SotF and Cultivation will very likely have significant higher throughput over the course of a fight. But when you pop that ToL in a edgy situation and you toss a few 8 man WGs and a few instant regrowths, you might have just saved from a wipe or might have saved having to pop other cooldowns you might need at a set moment later on in the fight.

Healing theorycrafting is a bit of a gray area in that regard. And even though there are optimal choices, there aren't that many explicitly bad choices. Unlike with most dps specs.

Healing theorycrafting is definitely in the gray area, but generally we have logs to back our claims aswell as healing windows, paired with HPM/SP values and some good logic and we are well on the way to get a good grip of the situation.

Essence of g'hanir is a farily strong cooldown to replace NV/HotW, considering how it buffs most of your healing when you can have WG + several rejvus out (possibly 3 sec overlapping WG which means 16 WGs out at the same time.)

The issue at hand is not only sotf and cultivation beating ToL over a longer period of time, which it definitely should be, otherwise ToL would be a godlike talent (see WoD healing.) The thing here is that both cultivation and SotF is largely competitive with ToL during the times where you would specifically want to use ToL, so while getting that extra healing overall cultivation also provides similar healing compared to ToL (rejuv + cult healing for more than a ToL rejuv.) While SotF provides WGs which are stronger than ToL. I do believe ToL is stronger than both sotf or cultivation during the time it's active, but it is very marginally, depending on which talent you compare with, the rejuvs or the WGs will be stronger. So yes if you can value the timeframe which ToL is active in as the only valid healing window it is a good talent, but the gain from the others outside this window tends to beat it out pretty heavily.

Earlier it had some synergies with talents like cultivation, which I would use in my arguements against ToL being useless, I used it on certain fights (read high botanist mythic.) and had good experiences with its strength, and even found it felt good coupled with abundance, didnt bother to use the extra keybind that CW would've requried me to. Abundance being a useless talent throughputwise though it didnt do a lot, but I believe ToL could add some buffs to both HT and/or regrowth to make them stronger during ToL, while also taking advantage of having many rejuvs going out.
This would allow for our direct heals to be quite a lot stronger, and also create some more flavour to ToL.

Just trying to throw an idea out there to see if people like it:
How does abundance allowing living seed to proc from regular damage, not just auto attacks sound?

[Tiberria]

Just trying to throw an idea out there to see if people like it:
How does abundance allowing living seed to proc from regular damage, not just auto attacks sound?

I would say Living Seed acting that way should be something that should be part of the baseline behavior of the ability, not something that you have to talent into. This is especially the case if our baseline spells are already being tuned/taxed by the existence of 80% Living Seed (which they clearly are given how much they heal for relative to every other healer's single target).

Living Seed in general is just a dumb as nails mechanic; why not have it proc 100% of the time regardless of Crit or non-Crit (it will obviously still be more valuable on crits given that they are twice as big a base heal to proc it off. That would make it at least more reliable and tune down the level of "unreliability" of Regrowth as a flash heal.

I think a more reasonable option would be for Abundance to (over and above the current effects)
(1) Allow Regrowth to take advantage of Crit over and above 100% Crit (i.e. similar to Combustion).
(2) Having Healing Touch always proc Living Seed regardless of whether it crits or not.

[Deleted]

Without having to read 60 pages in this thread, could people with beta acces tell how restodruid is shaping up against other healers in mystic? Can our cooldowns compete with other healers? How strong is absorb now?

[Anastacy]

I think this has been discussed before, but I kinda wish that Regrowth was Resto's "slow efficient" heal (with a slightly longer HoT?), and Healing Tough the spammy-oh-snap! heal. OOC, of course, could be changed to reflect this.

[ryklin]

living seed was an interesting mechanic back when it was added to give us more worthwhile crit gains back in the old age where spell crits gave 150% unless you had a talent to increase it although back then druids did even less direct healing than we do now

but yeah living seed is mostly irrelevant outside of pvp and 5mans, but I think it'll be important in new diablo greater rifts, errr challenge modes

yeah though, as a spec that generally shies away from direct heals it's still kinda weak, but at least it's very prone to not overhealing, in general it's just not a very important mechanic, the other 2 talents both look a lot more competitive in raiding and arena more because of this than due to abundance on its own, but yeah abundance could use some work, but it's a good starting point for the talent

and yeah anastacy, I agree having a hot portioned into your heal that should be for saving someone close to dead seems like really poor budgeting of a spell's power, I personally think a cool idea would be giving the hot a haste buff based on the targets missing hp, kinda of like how it used to refresh the hot on low hp people, but at least we have 2 charges of swiftmend or cenarion ward for that instead,

overall though, I'm fine with abundance in 5mans and maybe high tank damage and heal-the-dragon bosses, I just think it's ok as a situational talent though, even if you only need like 3 rejuvs out to crit cap regrowth with it, yeah having basic heals that suck is kinda' lame, but it's not too bad since we barely touch those in raids anyways

[theburned]

Without having to read 60 pages in this thread, could people with beta acces tell how restodruid is shaping up against other healers in mystic? Can our cooldowns compete with other healers? How strong is absorb now?

Absorb is a non issue, holy paladin sniping is still there, but we are reasonably strong.
In mystic I got no clue, but for mythic dungeons and raids we seem to be competitive, without putting too much thought towards which class is best we can definitely manage to take a spot.

[Deleted]

Absorb is a non issue, holy paladin sniping is still there, but we are reasonably strong.
In mystic I got no clue, but for mythic dungeons and raids we seem to be competitive, without putting too much thought towards which class is best we can definitely manage to take a spot.

How are the different raidcooldowns looking in beta?

[Deleted]

Rdruid haveing incombat res and 1min tank cooldown makes druids very strong for 5man mythic+

[Deleted]

Rdruid haveing incombat res and 1min tank cooldown makes druids very strong for 5man mythic+

And how do does cooldowns match against other healers in raidenvironment with 3-4 healer spots?

[Deleted]

just finished DHT mythic + 13
bolstering, overflowing, tyrannical
855 gear some sockets

WoD tank heirloom pretty OP (xavius is demon)
guardian affinity + frenzied regen op

talents
cenarion ward
renewal
guardian affinity
mighty bash
cultivation
germination
moment of clarity

20% crit
35 % haste (full haste setup)
15 % mastery

it took about 30 minutes to get to the endboss (the other 3 were one shot) and another 2 hours to kill him
bad rng, phasing issues and 10 minutes bloodlust debuff rly svck

http://imgur.com/doMPc80 0.1 % wipe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KLx0wrYKik
kill

i think resto druid will be the best healer for higher myth+ especially pushing early and undergeared
+ stealth
+ battlerez
+dmg with feral affinity
+ range taunt
+ roots cc, stun cc

[theburned]

How are the different raidcooldowns looking in beta?

Tranq is looking very good, Inner peace further enhances this, quite frankly all of them are too strong.
HTT is looking okay-ish, revival as it's always have been a bursty, but a bit weaker to compensate, divine hymn is decent aswell.
Aura mastery either works as a 20% DR, replicating all paladin healing, 10% pr person, and a trait which increases healing receieved by everyone by 15%, or just some flat ticking healing which seems lackluster. Barrier is what it has always been.

I would say tranq, AM, DH and revival all look good and fairly competitive, AM because of the trait, DH because healing increase aswell.
Tranq is the big power house it's always been, but yet again it doesnt scale very well, but this time around secondaries doesnt scale that much so should be fine.

- - - Updated - - -

just finished DHT mythic + 13
bolstering, overflowing, tyrannical
855 gear some sockets

WoD tank heirloom pretty OP (xavius is demon)
guardian affinity + frenzied regen op

talents
cenarion ward
renewal
guardian affinity
mighty bash
cultivation
germination
moment of clarity

While the first few talents seem quite regular, and I definitely see how renewal can beat out displacer beast, particularly in DHT.
But why moment of clarity, my experience with 10s a few weeks back had nothing indicating that bosses would take long enough to justify taking MoC over Stonebark or flourish, but I guess 4min+ fights kinda makes the longevity of being able to cast free regrowths help a lot.
as for wod heirloom thanks for the tip, 1m shield on a 1 minute cooldown must be quite good.