Youtubers and kid fans bypassing gambling laws - Valve's CS:GO skins in trouble

[Deleted]

A recent storm of shocking revelations of a huge, unregulated cashflow industry that bypass multiple types of laws, including US gambling and disclosure rules, has culiminated in a class action law suit against Valve, the makers of Steam and the video game CS:GO.

This video summarizes the essence of the problem and touches on just how far reaching it is:



Youtuber HonorTheCall, the guy who did much of the original research specifically on Youtubers: https://www.youtube.com/user/WarGod1283

Bloomberg on the gambling:

VIRTUAL WEAPONS ARE TURNING TEEN GAMERS INTO SERIOUS GAMBLERS - The boom in pro video gaming is fueled by $2.3 billion in online bets

The video game Counter-Strike: Global Offensive, in which players form teams of terrorists and counterinsurgents and shoot at one another, is a favorite of the professional e-sports circuit.
...
The game’s current success has made it easy to forget that CS:GO wasn’t an immediate hit for game maker Valve. It was the latest in the aging Counter-Strike series and came out at a time when there was no shortage of other shoot-’em-up games to choose from. Everything changed when Valve introduced something new: decorative virtual weapons, known as “skins,” that could be acquired in the game and sold for real money.

In-game purchases weren’t new, but the cash trade was Valve’s special twist. Within two years, the number of people playing CS:GO had grown 1,500 percent. Today, there are 380,000 people around the world playing the game at any given time.

When it introduced the skins, Valve said in an announcement that the online arms bazaar would let Counter-Strike players “experience all the thrills of black-market weapons trafficking without any of the hanging around in darkened warehouses getting knifed to death.” It was supposed to be a joke. But the reference to black markets was prescient.

For CS:GO, the introduction of skins led to a thriving gambling market. People buy skins for cash, then use the skins to place online bets on pro CS:GO matches. Because there’s a liquid market to convert each gun or knife back into cash, laying a bet in skins is essentially the same as betting with real money.

CS:GO’s popularity skyrocketed along with the skins gambling markets. Valve has sold 21 million copies of the game and made $567 million in total revenue from the title since it debuted almost four years ago, according to research firm SuperData, and a range of websites now let players trade or sell skins, or use them to gamble.

This kind of betting is far from mainstream, but plenty of people are figuring it out. By one estimate, more than 3 million people wagered $2.3 billion worth of skins on the outcome of e-sports matches in 2015. This, too, has contributed to Valve’s bottom line. The gambling sites run on software built by Valve, and whenever CS:GO skins are sold, the game maker collects 15 percent of the money.
...
Unregulated gambling on sports is illegal almost everywhere in the world, and some lawyers say this qualifies. The highest levels of competition in pro gaming have already seen match fixing by people looking to profit from skins gambling. Valve has ferreted out cheaters at times, but it has not discouraged gambling on its games, nor made any attempt to prevent people from using its products as currency. The company did not respond to repeated requests for comment for this story.

Bloomberg on the lawsuit:

Valve Faces Lawsuit Over Video Game Gambling - The company's failure to crack down on sites that use its virtual goods as currency for bets makes it complicit in a billion-dollar gambling industry, the suit charges.

[endersblade]

Haha, that video was awesome.

[Jester Joe]

Oh hey, it's Ethan.

But yeah, it's pretty ridiculous how high some of these skins can go for, even in other games, like Dota 2 I got a unusual courier that I sold for $80.

I mean, I'm not quite sure how this could be controlled though aside from just putting a typical "Hey, click here to confirm you're 18 and over!" for within the game (since that's still similar to slot gambling like pointed out), while shutting down 3rd party sites.

[Pengalor]

Haha, that video was awesome.

More like full of virtue-signaling and the same old 'video games cause x' arguments in a new set of clothes. I don't care about the Youtubers, they seem like scumbags but this video tries to pile on some ridiculous emotional baggage.

[Jester Joe]

More like full of virtue-signaling and the same old 'video games cause x' arguments in a new set of clothes. I don't care about the Youtubers, they seem like scumbags but this video tries to pile on some ridiculous emotional baggage.

That's part of Ethan's act in general.

It's more meant for entertainment, but none of what he says is wrong really.

[Gref]

ah the pleasure of spending a few bucks to get a red skin that you can sell for hundreds, thousands... Really it is just a fucknig skin, I immediately sell whatever I receive. I always buy my games on steam after selling skins on cs go. so far i am lucky enough to profit like %300 all time.

[Pengalor]

That's part of Ethan's act in general.

It's more meant for entertainment, but none of what he says is wrong really.

Unless he wants to back up any of his statements with evidence it's not right either. If he wants to claim that Valve is corrupting our sweet, innocent children with crates then he better back it up with at least a tiny bit of research. Otherwise, it's just witch-hunting based on personal preference.

[Bollocks]

Oh hey, it's Ethan.

But yeah, it's pretty ridiculous how high some of these skins can go for, even in other games, like Dota 2 I got a unusual courier that I sold for $80.

I mean, I'm not quite sure how this could be controlled though aside from just putting a typical "Hey, click here to confirm you're 18 and over!" for within the game (since that's still similar to slot gambling like pointed out), while shutting down 3rd party sites.

I mean poker and blackjack websites are regulated. Shouldn't the same apply to this skin problem gambling? Specially considering that this violates gambling laws that prohibit sport betting online.

[Jester Joe]

Unless he wants to back up any of his statements with evidence it's not right either. If he wants to claim that Valve is corrupting our sweet, innocent children with crates then he better back it up with at least a tiny bit of research. Otherwise, it's just witch-hunting based on personal preference.

Did you even actually watch the video? He barely mentions Valve themselves, and focuses on some big CSGO player's gambling site, and literally lists the sources. I'm honestly confused as to where you got Valve from out of the video, since he spends like, 30 seconds on them.

I mean poker and blackjack websites are regulated. Shouldn't the same apply to this skin problem gambling? Specially considering that this violates gambling laws that prohibit sport betting online.

I agree, but they would need to go an extra distance to require some sort of proof of age most likely. Otherwise you just end up with the "Confirm you're 18 of age" which stops no one.

[Bollocks]

Unless he wants to back up any of his statements with evidence it's not right either. If he wants to claim that Valve is corrupting our sweet, innocent children with crates then he better back it up with at least a tiny bit of research. Otherwise, it's just witch-hunting based on personal preference.

Doing some research on the topic, it seems that those that promote this market of gambling do full advertising on platforms that is intended to every audience. Youtube, Twitch. The problem that I see here is that Valve is very lax on regulations in what is essentially online gambling.

[Pengalor]

Did you even actually watch the video? He barely mentions Valve themselves, and focuses on some big CSGO player's gambling site, and literally lists the sources. I'm honestly confused as to where you got Valve from out of the video, since he spends like, 30 seconds on them.

The fact that he mentions them several times and connects them as 'enabling' these sites, it's a pretty clear accusation.

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Doing some research on the topic, it seems that those that promote this market of gambling do full advertising on platforms that is intended to every audience. Youtube, Twitch. The problem that I see here is that Valve is very lax on regulations in what is essentially online gambling.

There is no 'lax' about it, they don't do any regulation because it's not their site. These gambling sites aren't owned by or endorsed by Valve, there's nothing they can do to regulate it.

[Deleted]

The fact that he mentions them several times and connects them as 'enabling' these sites, it's a pretty clear accusation.

Not sure why you are going out of your way to defend against two FACTS from multiple sources, including Bloomberg:

1. Valve's technology has to be used to connect gambling skins to the sites. This cannot happen without Valve's complicity.
2. Valve makes 15% on skin transactions.

The most the video maker says about Valve itself is that this is "shady", the rest are just jokes at Valve's expense. So, your attacks are like throwing a tantrum at finding specks of dust on the ground because they could be poo, while a huge lion right in front of you with bones scattered around it is staring at you hungrily...

In addition, did you miss the "little" issue of the lawsuit against Valve too?

[Jester Joe]

The fact that he mentions them several times and connects them as 'enabling' these sites, it's a pretty clear accusation.

No, it really isn't. You're trying to connect something that isn't there. I'm not quite sure how much more clear cut you want this to get, he even overlapped two of the guys videos JUST for the purpose of calling him out on lying.

Yes, he does mention that Valve is skirting on illegal gambling, but he drops it after mentioning the lawsuit. And either way, as pointed out, it literally doesn't matter. Valve IS involved, so any accusations at them as to letting this happen is accurate. But the video itself barely touches upon that.

[KrazyK923]

Really weird seeing defense of Valve's and CSGO's shady bullshit here by somebody.

It's really funny to see them try and claim Ethan is making a "think of the children" or an emotional argument when he's showing off deliberate proof of the shady shit going down.

Sounds just like you're a big fan and was triggered.

[Pengalor]

Not sure why you are going out of your way to defend against two FACTS from multiple sources, including Bloomberg:

1. Valve's technology has to be used to connect gambling skins to the sites. This cannot happen without Valve's complicity.
2. Valve makes 15% on skin transactions.

1. It's an API. What exactly are they going to do, go through and vet every single website and then also spend tons of time taking down new ones that pop up?
2. On betting? No. They make that from people selling skins on their market which has no gambling involved, it's one person setting a price for a skin and another person buying it with money from the steam wallet, that's it.

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No, it really isn't. You're trying to connect something that isn't there. I'm not quite sure how much more clear cut you want this to get, he even overlapped two of the guys videos JUST for the purpose of calling him out on lying.

Yes, he does mention that Valve is skirting on illegal gambling, but he drops it after mentioning the lawsuit. And either way, as pointed out, it literally doesn't matter. Valve IS involved, so any accusations at them as to letting this happen is accurate. But the video itself barely touches upon that.

You literally just said 'they didn't connect them!...well, they did, but it was after the lawsuit thing'. Who cares 'how much' he touched on it, he clearly connected them and pointed at them as complicit. He clearly has an issue with the crate system and clearly feels Valve isn't 'doing enough' to stop these sites from doing what they do.

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Really weird seeing defense of Valve's and CSGO's shady bullshit here by somebody.

It's really funny to see them try and claim Ethan is making a "think of the children" or an emotional argument when he's showing off deliberate proof of the shady shit going down.

Sounds just like you're a big fan and was triggered.

And it sounds to me like you didn't even bother to read my arguments. I didn't even know who the two Youtubers were before the video and I don't plan on finding out anytime soon. My issue is with the bullshit argument about kids and the bullshit implication of complicity towards Valve (I'll assume you're saying I'm a fan of the Youtubers since he didn't show 'proof' of anything regarding Valve).

[Jester Joe]

You literally just said 'they didn't connect them!...well, they did, but it was after the lawsuit thing'. Who cares 'how much' he touched on it, he clearly connected them and pointed at them as complicit.

You're changing things again to try to link something that isn't there.

I never said he didn't mention them at all, I said he barely mentions them, and that the focus is on the Youtubers (Which is kinda what Ethan does, he focuses on shady things other Youtubers do). Also it's clear as say I said that he DROPS it after the lawsuit, not that he MENTIONED it after the lawsuit.

Yet again, all this can easily be seen by looking through my last few posts and by rewatching the video. There's not much to debate, it's just facts.

And it sounds to me like you didn't even bother to read my arguments. I didn't even know who the two Youtubers were before the video and I don't plan on finding out anytime soon. My issue is with the bullshit argument about kids and the bullshit implication of complicity towards Valve.

Because Valve has never been accused of not being great at taking care of their features at all.

Just look at how long it took them to add a return policy. They're way too hands off.

And also if you have no intention of finding out about the two youtubers that this is focused around, then why waste time discussing what you're only paying half attention to?

[Pengalor]

You're changing things again to try to link something that isn't there.

I never said he didn't mention them at all, I said he barely mentions them, and that the focus is on the Youtubers (Which is kinda what Ethan does, he focuses on shady things other Youtubers do). Also it's clear as say I said that he DROPS it after the lawsuit, not that he MENTIONED it after the lawsuit.

Yet again, all this can easily be seen by looking through my last few posts and by rewatching the video. There's not much to debate, it's just facts.

Watch the first three minutes of the video again, it's pretty clear he's taking shots at Valve for the crate system and is underhandedly making claims about it encouraging children to gamble. I can't believe you're not seeing this.

Because Valve has never been accused of not being great at taking care of their features at all.

Just look at how long it took them to add a return policy. They're way too hands off.

And also if you have no intention of finding out about the two youtubers that this is focused around, then why waste time discussing what you're only paying half attention to?

As I've already stated, you're basically asking them to keep a constant vigil of every single site that uses their API and verifying daily that it's not used for gambling purposes for children. That's an insane request.

And what I mean by 'not finding out' is I don't plan on subscribing to them or watching their videos, that's pretty damn clear from the context of the post considering I felt he was accusing me of being a fan of one or both of the Youtubers. I am aware of their actions through the evidence provided in the video, that's enough for me to know I want nothing to do with them.

[Jester Joe]

Watch the first three minutes of the video again, it's pretty clear he's taking shots at Valve for the crate system and is underhandedly making claims about it encouraging children to gamble. I can't believe you're not seeing this.

The first 3 minutes.

Of a 14 minute long video.

Yeah, he kinda needs to set up the basic information, what's he gonna do, jump right into making fun of a youtuber about something that makes no sense due to not giving any background information? He explains what's going on, talks about the lawsuit, talks about the crates, makes fun of it, and then goes onto the youtubers for the next 11 minutes about.

As I've already stated, you're basically asking them to keep a constant vigil of every single site that uses their API and verifying daily that it's not used for gambling purposes for children. That's an insane request.

And what I mean by 'not finding out' is I don't plan on subscribing to them or watching their videos, that's pretty damn clear from the context of the post considering I felt he was accusing me of being a fan of one or both of the Youtubers. I am aware of their actions through the evidence provided in the video, that's enough for me to know I want nothing to do with them.

How is it insane to just not allow 3rd party sites to link to your steam account in such a way until they're verified? I don't see any unreasonable request, it's not as if Valve is some small indy company.

And I'm not saying go become their biggest fan, I'm just saying at least acknowledge the information that was given in the video, since it's kinda the focus of the video.

[Dendrek]

Having an in-game IRL money lotto system is shit; people with addictive personalities and gambling addictions easily get suckered in by that -- the biggest earners for games that do this are from people with gambling addictions. The fact you can resell the skins is shady as fuck. They are explicitly encouraging real-money gambling, even if you somehow ignore that gambling sites have appeared to take advantage of this model.

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1. It's an API. What exactly are they going to do, go through and vet every single website and then also spend tons of time taking down new ones that pop up?
2. On betting? No. They make that from people selling skins on their market which has no gambling involved, it's one person setting a price for a skin and another person buying it with money from the steam wallet, that's it.

They are making a massive amount of money off of this. They absolutely can and should try to regulate it. You're essentially acting like that would be too much work.

Blizzard won't allow third-party addon developers to make money off of their addons. They are very strict about that and they keep on top of it. Valve has actual gambling sites popping up that they're doing nothing about. Tell me again about how much work it would take for them to regulate this.

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One easy way to regulate that is to limit how many transactions a single source can do in a given time frame; and have a registration process for sites that want to be able to do more transactions than that. Problem solved.

[Pengalor]

The first 3 minutes.

Of a 14 minute long video.

Yeah, he kinda needs to set up the basic information, what's he gonna do, jump right into making fun of a youtuber about something that makes no sense due to not giving any background information? He explains what's going on, talks about the lawsuit, talks about the crates, makes fun of it, and then goes onto the youtubers for the next 11 minutes about.

Maybe you just have issues reading between the lines and understanding the statements being made. If you're describing something that is only there for informational purposes then you use neutral language and presentation. That's not what happened here. It may not have been the focus of the video but it sure as hell wasn't neutral.

How is it insane to just not allow 3rd party sites to link to your steam account in such a way until they're verified? I don't see any unreasonable request, it's not as if Valve is some small indy company.

And I'm not saying go become their biggest fan, I'm just saying at least acknowledge the information that was given in the video, since it's kinda the focus of the video.

Because not only is that a massive pain in the ass for the consumer but it's also a pretty huge undertaking. The API is free to use, who knows how many websites are using it? They would have to hire someone to regularly visit and revisit these sites to ensure nothing they deem unacceptable is going on (and that's assuming they can even easily see which sites are using the API, they may not be tracking that info).

And I did acknowledge it. Literally my first post in this thread was saying they sound like scumbags, what else are you asking for exactly? I heard what was said about them, I saw there was sufficient evidence provided, I don't need anything else. You seem to have this focus on how much of the video it took up. I don't care about that, it's not like I agreed with the majority of the video so I have to agree with the whole thing. I'm calling out a specific piece of the video that I feel was way off the mark.

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They are making a massive amount of money off of this. They absolutely can and should try to regulate it. You're essentially acting like that would be too much work.

Blizzard won't allow third-party addon developers to make money off of their addons. They are very strict about that and they keep on top of it. Valve has actual gambling sites popping up that they're doing nothing about. Tell me again about how much work it would take for them to regulate this.

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One easy way to regulate that is to limit how many transactions a single source can do in a given time frame; and have a registration process for sites that want to be able to do more transactions than that. Problem solved.

Pretty hilarious that you would use Blizzard as an example. How successful have they been at stopping gold sellers?

Also, your suggestion sounds pretty terrible for the consumer. It's their items, let them do as they please with said items.