20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[Lilija]

It became lesser failure when they added cross realm mythic raiding.

I admitt, that if Mythic was xrealm full time, I would say that raiding has become almost perfect (would reach 100% if I could stay alliance and raid with hordies as well :P )

[Raiju]

It became lesser failure when they added cross realm mythic raiding.

Pretty much expecting this to happen at some point, given it's the only way mythic survives longterm.

[caervek]

Blizzard said that by having mythic as 20 man only they could make class specific encounter mechanics. How many did you see? I saw MC'ing engineers on Blast Furnace. That's it. Doesn't seem like gutting 10 man mythic for that was worth it.

The funniest thing was, that was a mechanic lifted from Naxxramas 40/25, which had already been replaced in Naxxramas 10 by a much better one haha.

[Cynep]

The current system is not a return to the Wrath system. The Wrath system would be better than the current one.

Let's discuss this further? WoD/Legion raid system is Wrath system with 25HC becoming 20M, 10mans becoming Flex and an additional LFR difficulty added from below. Looks like a return to the Wrath to me. You think removing LFR and limiting Normal and Heroic to 10man only "would be better than the current one"?? I don't agree.

Wrath ===> Now
25HC ====> 20M
10HC ====> 10-30HC
10N =====> 10-30N
none ====> 25LFR

[Vorkreist]

Sure, there was a tiny minority woul wanted to to do 25 mans.


Dwarfed by the people who didn't want to, of course.


I stopped at highmaul because it wasn't doable even on normal with 10 men.


Then why are they still making raids? No one cares.

You say you preferred small size raiding but highmaul 10 man flex was too hard.... yeah legit raiding expertise and valid points.
Did Osmeric recruit you into his lfr hero propaganda team? You always post in the same threads.

[Osmeric]

You say you preferred small size raiding but highmaul 10 man flex was too hard.... yeah legit raiding expertise and valid points.
Did Osmeric recruit you into his lfr hero propaganda team? You always post in the same threads.

He's exaggerating a bit about 10 man difficulty, but there was a scaling problem there. It's sad, because WoD Normal was supposed to be for Friends and Family guilds, and those aren't likely to add lots of extras just to take advantage of 30 being much easier than 10.

[Deleted]

He's exaggerating a bit about 10 man difficulty, but there was a scaling problem there. It's sad, because WoD Normal was supposed to be for Friends and Family guilds, and those aren't likely to add lots of extras just to take advantage of 30 being much easier than 10.

It was so much easier to take 18 or 20 than 10 it basically made every F+F masochists for trying to keep with their long standing group instead of inviiting 8-10 complete strangers.

Given the aim of the design was to let already existing groups play together minus the toxic atmosphere you get pugging/LFR flex was a complete failure. It actively punished you for not inviting randoms!

Added to that some of the bosses were simply mechanically non viable at launch. They did fix it a little while later (8 weeks or something) and HFC is more doable but by then it was too late, the damage had been done.

[Mahourai]

Let's discuss this further?

I'm just talking about hardmodes.

It would be better to go back to a lesser 10-man hardmode (Wrath style) than for there to be no 10-man hardmode (WoD style), although obviously the Cataclysm and MoP model is preferable to either. The fact that they have the same name does not mean that Wrath 10 Heroic and WoD 10 Heroic are comparable. Under the WoD model, for example, Lich King wouldn't have Shadow Traps or the changed Frostmourne phase in 10-man.

[Laraven]

I think if they're going to keep it, they need to keep the cross realm aspect. Recruiting became nigh on impossible on my realm.

Better still, let us form cross realm guilds, so we can keep hold of the people we meet.

Cross realm guilds are the only way to make 20 Mythic 100% successful for every server.

[Greenmagoo]

So far it looks like Legion will continue with the 20 man mythic system. The proposed ML restrictions would prove an issue for cross realm mythic groups if cross realm is to remain an option for mythic.

We shall see in the coming months what impact the class changes along with some buff removal has on group composition.

[Lilija]

Cross realm guilds are the only way to make 20 Mythic 100% successful for every server.

I agree. But I'm not sure Blizzard is realizing this yet. Anyway, the idea is worth spreading. Servers were slowly dying since TBC and nowadays many of them are beyong revival. People simply won't go to a dead/dying server no matter how many merges they make.

[Deleted]

Huge failiure obviously. The major problem is: there are way too many difficulties in this Game! And when you reach Mythic you are already bored of the fucking raid! I had HFC Heroic clear after like 2 Weeks and then I quit, because I could not be bothered to do the same shit AGAIN!

In Vanilla and TBC I raided because I wanted to see the Bosses. If I could have killed Kael'Thas, Illidan and Vashj just in the Retard-Finder I would not have bothered killing them legit.

[Lilija]

Huge failiure obviously. The major problem is: there are way too many difficulties in this Game! And when you reach Mythic you are already bored of the fucking raid! I had HFC Heroic clear after like 2 Weeks and then I quit, because I could not be bothered to do the same shit AGAIN!

In Vanilla and TBC I raided because I wanted to see the Bosses. If I could have killed Kael'Thas, Illidan and Vashj just in the Retard-Finder I would not have bothered killing them legit.

So I would assume you were one of those who didn't come on farm raids because "you've already seen the boss"?

People who raid ONLY to see bosses are not Mythic raider material. Heroic is perfectly fine for them.

[Nathreim]

Failure killed 10 man guilds like mine though the poor content probably helped a lot with that too.

[Deleted]

So I would assume you were one of those who didn't come on farm raids because "you've already seen the boss"?

People who raid ONLY to see bosses are not Mythic raider material. Heroic is perfectly fine for them.

I farmed in Vanilla/TBC only to see more Content. But since Casualysm you farm only to see the same Bosses with more HP! I'm not wasting time on BS like that!

[KaPe]

I farmed in Vanilla/TBC only to see more Content. But since Casualysm you farm only to see the same Bosses with more HP! I'm not wasting time on BS like that!

Mythic generally has changes which go beyond "same boss with more hitpoints", introducing new abilities, adds or even entire phases. Of course being too creative with it can be a problem, as shown by Imperator and his final phase - where parts of lore were hidden behind a rather challenging boss.

Either way - for people who "seriously" raid Mythic, number of difficulties is hardly a problem. They treat Normal/Heroic as mere stepping stones - a practice run before the real content starts. Helps that those difficulties generally have mechanics that are delibateraly weakened that you can generally ignore them, changing the way you play once you get to "the real thing". It's not LFR level of "I stood in fire and nothing happened", but "getting hit hurts, but doesn't instantly kill you". Of course it's the most creative it can be - but again, it's difficult to make 4 completely different versions of the same boss.

[Deleted]

They should just remove RetardFinder and Mythic and make Heroic as hard as Mythic and Normal as easy as it is right now. So the Casualscrubs can do Normal and everyone who wants to seriously raid does Heroic.

That would make the Game so much better.

[KaPe]

They should just remove RetardFinder and Mythic and make Heroic as hard as Mythic and Normal as easy as it is right now. So the Casualscrubs can do Normal and everyone who wants to seriously raid does Heroic.

That would make the Game so much better.

So, widen the difficulty gap by an enormous amount, remove content for people who enjoy some difficulty, but not too much and make it impossible for large percentage of players to see the bosses/get some loot. Who exactly benefits from that, other than you?

Mythic success or failure is debatable, but the debate mostly focused on static number of raiders, not "yet another difficulty level". Especially since people who raid it pretty much ignore LFR and only do normal couple times, so they never deal with four difficulties.

[Lilija]

They should just remove RetardFinder and Mythic and make Heroic as hard as Mythic and Normal as easy as it is right now. So the Casualscrubs can do Normal and everyone who wants to seriously raid does Heroic.

That would make the Game so much better.

What difference does it make if there are 4 or 2 difficulties? All raiding guilds focus on only 2 difficulties: lower for farm, higher for progress. So guilds that only aim at Normal, do LFR for gear, guilds that only progress Heroic don't really need to do LFR much as Normal is enough gear for heroic, Mythic guilds, don't go below Heroic.

More difficulties mean, more people have a chance to walk the path from a new player to a Mythic raider if they show enough skill and dedication to do so starting from the easy stuff and then move on to harder if they don't find their current content challenging enough. This works much better than Vanilla/TBC system. It also makes it possible for the hardests content to get progressivly harder without locking out ppl joining WoW in later expantions and lacking years of experience from seeing what raiding is about. This is what was very wrong with Cataclysm since hard content was as usual harder than before and there was absolutely no entry raid content for the new players.

[Deleted]

What difference does it make if there are 4 or 2 difficulties? All raiding guilds focus on only 2 difficulties: lower for farm, higher for progress. So guilds that only aim at Normal, do LFR for gear, guilds that only progress Heroic don't really need to do LFR much as Normal is enough gear for heroic, Mythic guilds, don't go below Heroic.

More difficulties mean, more people have a chance to walk the path from a new player to a Mythic raider if they show enough skill and dedication to do so starting from the easy stuff and then move on to harder if they don't find their current content challenging enough. This works much better than Vanilla/TBC system. It also makes it possible for the hardests content to get progressivly harder without locking out ppl joining WoW in later expantions and lacking years of experience from seeing what raiding is about. This is what was very wrong with Cataclysm since hard content was as usual harder than before and there was absolutely no entry raid content for the new players.

We do go normal tho for the first 2 weeks atleast I'd say.

For sure at the start of an expansion ofc, but also half way for set pieces.