[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[keqe]

Updated. I'm also using something much easier now (turns out there's a UnitStagger() function now - you don't need to attempt to read it from the UnitAura() anymore).

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Thanks mate

[Hobbs]

Stampeding Roar is more of a crutch for idiots with low reaction time who can't pop their own speed boost, get out of and into position quick enough. Has always been, will always be. I hardly consider it utility, statue isn't really utility either.

Mass Grip, and the DH black hole type spell(if they still went through with that, haven't touched my DH since early alpha) are both far more of a raid utility that can make or break encounters then roar. No one ever needed roar to beat a boss, but Xhul Mythic without mass grips? You could do it... but an entirely new level of hard.

I'll acknowledge that things have likely changed since I last raided. Sprints used to be much rarer and does seem like everyone has a personal movement ability now. But saying "has always been" is incorrect. Rag and Hagara are two fights off the top of my head where roar was insanely powerful. That power is likely diminished now from what it once was, but to say it's just a crutch and not utility is a bit of an overstatement, I'd argue.

Even if we concede that it is a crutch, the reality is that most people raid with people who make lots of mistakes. The best I've ever been is top 2%. When you raid somewhere in between hardcore and casual, you just play with a lot of people who make frequent mistakes (but it's worth it to set your own schedule and play with your friends lol) So yeah maybe roar isn't that strong for that top 1%, but it still has incredible power for most raid groups.

I must admit I didn't even know mass grip was a thing. Never played a DK and don't remember it being a thing last time I raided. (Also don't know who Xhul is :P)

Thanks for your analysis and input. Also, thanks to Leblue. Your comment was very helpful. We did get a bit off topic though from the original intent of my question.

Do BM monks bring enough utility to the table in mythic to be considered? Or is utility something I shouldn't even be too focused on?

[Leblue]

The "utility" of tanks will in all likelihood be a thing for the top 20ish world who're racing to complete the content in the first few weeks and even then it'll probably be less of what utility is brought, and more which tank performs best in an relatively undergeared environment and how their toolkit stacks up against the boss mechanics. In that aspect, I can't really answer it thoroughly and the answer probably won't be until live tuning when those world first guilds really put themselves to the grindstone of figuring out what tank will break things more (i.e. monks in BRF). It'll also entirely depend on how the Guldan encounter ends up playing out since its not uncommon for tank, healer, and dps specs to all be decided on for the tier in relation to the end boss which is generally the most difficult.

Most guilds you'll probably be fine and be able to make a solid argument for Monks. Keep in mind even Death Knights with Gorefiend's Grasp have a 3 minute cooldown on it (2 if talented), Warriors might get some neat use out of safeguard or have to talent into Inspiring presence if they're the only one along with also having the ability to talent into an aoe stun, Demon Hunter's darkness suffers from being a really low chance and its not 100% on everything it can even affect so it may be a super niche thing along with relatively small aoe silences and grips (1 and 2 min cds respectively), Paladins can talent into a positional DR which may cause issues depending on encounter along with of course the usual hands and BoPs (far more likely to break things than the other tanks imo), and of course druids have a couple extra tricks but nothing way crazy.

Out of all the tanks Paladins (imo) might be a bit on top in the "utility" department, but I don't think anything is so breaking with the natural limit of 2 (maybe 3 in rare instances) tanks in each fight.

[stross01]

Stampeding Roar is more of a crutch for idiots with low reaction time who can't pop their own speed boost, get out of and into position quick enough. Has always been, will always be. I hardly consider it utility, statue isn't really utility either.

Mass Grip, and the DH black hole type spell(if they still went through with that, haven't touched my DH since early alpha) are both far more of a raid utility that can make or break encounters then roar. No one ever needed roar to beat a boss, but Xhul Mythic without mass grips? You could do it... but an entirely new level of hard.

Stampeding Roar is a survival increase and a raid dps increase.

I'm not sure what game you even play.

- - - Updated - - -

Brewmaster utility is a bit more limited in raiding environments outside of specific encounters, generally dealing with adds. The ability to mass stun (Leg Sweep) or have absolute control over streaming or large amounts of incoming adds (Dave) isn't something to exactly be ignored either. Of course, specific specs are always going to be useful in some situation more so than others and varying on comp. It just depends on what and where you value it.

Which adds do you fight that aren't already trivial or are controlled by Black Ox Statue?

It dies in 1-2 hits on any relevant mythic dungeon or heroic or higher raid content. Not sure I'd call that 'absolute control'. The only good utility it has now is the threat multiplier from Provoke for the Keg Smash that follows.

[v1perz53]

I still wish that when blizzard started giving all healers AoE and ST raid CDs, that they would've given healers the ST damage reduction CDs and AoE large burst healing CDs, but given the -damage or +HP or positional raidwide CDs to tanks. To me nothing seemed more tanky than protecting your whole raid with some ability. The new pally talent is a perfect example of what I think all tanks should have. But I fear that boat has long since sailed.

Stampeding Roar is more of a crutch for idiots with low reaction time who can't pop their own speed boost, get out of and into position quick enough. Has always been, will always be. I hardly consider it utility, statue isn't really utility either.

Mass Grip, and the DH black hole type spell(if they still went through with that, haven't touched my DH since early alpha) are both far more of a raid utility that can make or break encounters then roar. No one ever needed roar to beat a boss, but Xhul Mythic without mass grips? You could do it... but an entirely new level of hard.

Man, back when I was progressing on Lich King 25 Heroic, I would've sacrificed several small babies to satan for an ability like Stampeding Roar to be in the game, it would've been huge for something like that. Similarly, things like the traps on Rag Heroic in firelands really benefitted from roars. Not to mention the old idea that any time there is travel time for melee movement speed is the biggest DPS increase because it allows them to get back on target faster. You're crazy if you don't think Stampede is very potent utility.

[Deleted]

I haven't played with statue so far, but it's even squishier than it already was in WoD? I used it regularly to cheese stuff in dungeons and stuff (first boss (on the right) in slagmines, who cares about the adds that stream in, statue will catch them, just tell dps to not hit them and focus the boss, gg, etc).

[Tech614]

Stampeding Roar is a survival increase and a raid dps increase.

I'm not sure what game you even play.

Such dps increase when the vast majority of specs have a better speed increase on a shorter cd Roar is useful for what? DKs? That's about it... I guess if you stack your raid with 10 dps DKs it's a massive dps increase...

Like are you one of those guys who didn't pop burst of speed, or use roll, or use transcendence because your druid was popping roar? LMAO. The vast majority of specs have a much better means of getting from point a to point b then roar. Acting like it's some massive utility is pretty laughable, it's useful for a very small portion of the raid just like most utility is useful for very small situations. No tank has some utility that is be all end all that will make or break the fight. The hardcore progression tanks are going to be the ones that are less likely to die while undergeared, it will have jack shit to do with any "utility".

Survival increase? I hope you're not serious.

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I still wish that when blizzard started giving all healers AoE and ST raid CDs, that they would've given healers the ST damage reduction CDs and AoE large burst healing CDs, but given the -damage or +HP or positional raidwide CDs to tanks. To me nothing seemed more tanky than protecting your whole raid with some ability. The new pally talent is a perfect example of what I think all tanks should have. But I fear that boat has long since sailed.



Man, back when I was progressing on Lich King 25 Heroic, I would've sacrificed several small babies to satan for an ability like Stampeding Roar to be in the game, it would've been huge for something like that. Similarly, things like the traps on Rag Heroic in firelands really benefitted from roars. Not to mention the old idea that any time there is travel time for melee movement speed is the biggest DPS increase because it allows them to get back on target faster. You're crazy if you don't think Stampede is very potent utility.

Again what does LK25 have to do with the current game? We're talking back when like 2-4 classes had good mobility. Where as now pretty much everyone but DKs do.

Also did Rag 10H without a single druid in the raid world 43, druid wouldn't have made that rank any higher. In fact the only thing that would have made that rank higher would have been our ele sham not going on a 2 week break as that was the true spec that made or broke the fight for us, not some crutch roar.

[v1perz53]

Again what does LK25 have to do with the current game? We're talking back when like 2-4 classes had good mobility. Where as now pretty much everyone but DKs do.

Also did Rag 10H without a single druid in the raid world 43, druid wouldn't have made that rank any higher. In fact the only thing that would have made that rank higher would have been our ele sham not going on a 2 week break as that was the true spec that made or broke the fight for us, not some crutch roar.

I brought up LK 25 because the speed increases classes had around that time are honestly closer to what classes have after the legion prune, or have you totally missed all of the changes? Almost all classes now have DPS penalties attached to their speed increases, whether being Moonkins having to shift to cat or Hunter increase being on a 3 min CD or Monk speed increase being on the GCD. 60% speed increase raid wide is fantastic, and honestly it is hard to believe you can't see how good it is.

And about Rag, a raid wide speed increase becomes better the more people it affects. Similarly, the more people involved in a movement mechanic the harder it is, because of more points of failure. Obviously no 10 man used Stampeding Roar on Rag, both because you would never have enough druids to cover every movement phase and because with only 10 people it wasn't necessary. But you would be a fool not to use it in a 25 man with 3 druids (which was every 25 man back then). Same reason why for LK heroic Defile was a joke on 10 man but the main source of wipes on 25 man. And yes, I also did Rag heroic 10 and 25 back then, using no stampede in 10 and yes stampedes in 25, with a 10 man group that cleared all of DS heroic pre-spine nerf.

But this is a stupid argument. Stampede is great utility, mass grip is also great utility, depending on fight design one could end up being brokenly OP or fully worthless. Both are 100% better than the nonexistent raid utility BrM brings (Dave is not raid utility). Not saying we need raid utility but you can't argue other tanks don't have more than BrM.

[arcuro]

we had no raid utility since the removal of mini-guard from Dave and are doing just fine so.
The biggest plus for BrM was always high(est) mobility, very smooth damage intake and relative good sustain

i guess we will never be as near as pala or druid in case of raid utility all alone for their class design as "portectors". they were always more of the utility side. Problem is that druides right now are the best tanks with arguably the best utility

ZenMed would be a nice target for raid utility. But the "absorbs harmfull spells against your raid" was never thought out to the final and would cheese to much could be like something as a 10% dmg reduction in a 40y radius as long as it lasts

[Leblue]

Warriors and monks also continue to be the only two tanks that have an aoe stun as well. Not that its the greatest thing ever for raiding (because even then its relatively infrequent), but in other kinds of content its a solid ability to have. I'd argue that Leg Sweep is better than Shockwave as well, but I'll admit to not touching a warrior since attempting to level it back in MoP and stopping at 86.

Which adds do you fight that aren't already trivial or are controlled by Black Ox Statue?

It dies in 1-2 hits on any relevant mythic dungeon or heroic or higher raid content. Not sure I'd call that 'absolute control'. The only good utility it has now is the threat multiplier from Provoke for the Keg Smash that follows.

Absolute is probably a bit hyperbolic, but having a pulsing threat statue to funnel any incoming adds is undoubtedly useful. Whether its worth taking over Leg Sweep is a different discussion of course but the ability is there in the case that it does become really strong for a situation. I'll admit to having not tried anything beyond what's been available for normal testing and heroic dungeon since I'm basically done w/ beta outside of trying to get into any sort of raid testing for fear of burning myself out.

What level Mythic+ is Dave getting one/two shot anyway out of curiousity? I just am curious because I'm sure there's going to be a somewhat fluid opinion on what "relevant" means when it comes to Mythic+ and what's considered cutting edge.

[v1perz53]

Warriors and monks also continue to be the only two tanks that have an aoe stun as well. Not that its the greatest thing ever for raiding (because even then its relatively infrequent), but in other kinds of content its a solid ability to have. I'd argue that Leg Sweep is better than Shockwave as well, but I'll admit to not touching a warrior since attempting to level it back in MoP and stopping at 86.

I actually think Shockwave is better than Leg Sweep in almost every way. Only a 20 sec CD if you hit 3 things, still 5 sec lower CD than leg sweep without it, and the frontal cone has always been a bit more forgiving than the PbAoE of Leg Sweep in my experience. It is a 1 second lesser duration stun, though, but wars also give up less to take it (we give up Dave, they give up some other type of stun). But regardless, I do think an AoE stun can be very useful, especially with Mythic+ dungeons becoming more relevant. I know from MoP and WoD challenge modes how nice AoE stuns can be for those. And honestly, there have been situations in the past where AoE stuns have been used to great effect in raiding. Not quite raid utility to the level of Aegis of Light, but I'll take it. Just wish it wasn't that or statue, though honestly I've never really cared for the statue and I never felt that adds of any kind were difficult to pick up anyway (I also hated Dizzying Haze and never relied on that either). But it did have its moments when it could offtank adds for an entire fight and let your group totally ignore them.

[Damax]

Is anyone actually liking the changes to brewmaster? I think they are amongst the worst changes. Skill level cap blah blah, whatever lol. Rotation feelsbadman. Just curious...

[skeptyc]

Is anyone actually liking the changes to brewmaster? I think they are amongst the worst changes. Skill level cap blah blah, whatever lol. Rotation feelsbadman. Just curious...

I'm having a blast with it. Sure, I don't have my superlolguard anymore, but I'm really having no issues with self healing - just have to keep your Orbs hanging around for when you need them. I've been getting comments from healers that they're bored, because there isn't anything to really heal, since i do it myself. Blackout Combo feels really good as a talent, giving me decisions to make and options. Also, our DPS just wrecks face, especially on AOE.

Caveat: I have not done Mythic+ dungeons, so people may have different opinions for that content.

[Mokuna]

At first i disliked them but when you think about it they're not all that bad,

Currently purifying is just automatic through a proper rotation, you rarely ever press purifying brew (even during progress), most monks completly overlook expel harm and gift of the ox and overuse guard (which really isn't the proper most optimal way to play but kinda works),

The rotation is pretty much build 3-4 Chis and spend them(sometimes 2 if you have procs that are about to run out but that's really tryhard stuff if you're going for high parses so let's forget about it) , use keg smash on cd, use jab/expel harm not to energy cap and spam tiger palm the rest of the time, with some practice you can just do it perfectly on auto pilot, so your only real ressources to manage are your elusive brew stacks and guard charges, and these are quite straight forward

The class was in an awkward spot this tier, staggering was too high in brf so it got nerfed really hard and monks turned into this awkward squishy avoidance tank with a lot of selfhealing and huge absorbs, it's clearly not a good design to compensate squishiness with absurd absorbs (over 2m guard with a maxed out ring in mythic gear these days)

On Beta chi is gone but that's not a big loss since you barely managed it at all, the rotation is a bit more awkward because you've spells that cost no energy, spells that do, but in the end it's way more buttons to press and it's overall trickier to do it perfectly.
More importantly: stagger management is back, you've decisions to make about when to stagger more, when to purify, how to use your purify charges, thing that was almost completly gone the last tier, and overlooked in brf because serenity gave you an absurd amount of chi to purify, gift of the ox orbs and healing elixirs are also tricky to manage, so i'd say defensively the skillcap is actually higher than it was since you've a lot of options
Overall the monk feels more like a proper tank, mitigating damage and playing around his mitigation rather than being squishy and abusing absorbs to deal with it

My only real regrets are niche abilies going out, like chi torpedo, zen sphere, touch of death, abilities that required practice to use properly but were rewarding, overall I think the offensive complexity is going down quite a lot, but the defensive complexity is going up, and the new design is more likely to make monks good progress tanks

[stross01]

Such dps increase when the vast majority of specs have a better speed increase on a shorter cd Roar is useful for what? DKs? That's about it... I guess if you stack your raid with 10 dps DKs it's a massive dps increase...

Like are you one of those guys who didn't pop burst of speed, or use roll, or use transcendence because your druid was popping roar? LMAO. The vast majority of specs have a much better means of getting from point a to point b then roar. Acting like it's some massive utility is pretty laughable, it's useful for a very small portion of the raid just like most utility is useful for very small situations. No tank has some utility that is be all end all that will make or break the fight. The hardcore progression tanks are going to be the ones that are less likely to die while undergeared, it will have jack shit to do with any "utility".

Survival increase? I hope you're not serious.

- - - Updated - - -



Again what does LK25 have to do with the current game? We're talking back when like 2-4 classes had good mobility. Where as now pretty much everyone but DKs do.

Also did Rag 10H without a single druid in the raid world 43, druid wouldn't have made that rank any higher. In fact the only thing that would have made that rank higher would have been our ele sham not going on a 2 week break as that was the true spec that made or broke the fight for us, not some crutch roar.

I am absolutely serious. I am super curious as to what guild you're in that doesn't use Stampeding Roar that also raids at a Mythic progression level.

World 43 Rag was a german 25-man guild, so I'm not sure if that's the guild you're talking about.

What level Mythic+ is Dave getting one/two shot anyway out of curiousity? I just am curious because I'm sure there's going to be a somewhat fluid opinion on what "relevant" means when it comes to Mythic+ and what's considered cutting edge.

In Mythic 7, and a couple Mythic 6, if you drop the statue in the center of a pack, they're distracted for less than a second. I can't really imagine a situation in the available dungeons where Leg Sweep isn't superior.

I actually think Shockwave is better than Leg Sweep in almost every way. Only a 20 sec CD if you hit 3 things, still 5 sec lower CD than leg sweep without it, and the frontal cone has always been a bit more forgiving than the PbAoE of Leg Sweep in my experience. It is a 1 second lesser duration stun, though, but wars also give up less to take it (we give up Dave, they give up some other type of stun). But regardless, I do think an AoE stun can be very useful, especially with Mythic+ dungeons becoming more relevant. I know from MoP and WoD challenge modes how nice AoE stuns can be for those. And honestly, there have been situations in the past where AoE stuns have been used to great effect in raiding. Not quite raid utility to the level of Aegis of Light, but I'll take it. Just wish it wasn't that or statue, though honestly I've never really cared for the statue and I never felt that adds of any kind were difficult to pick up anyway (I also hated Dizzying Haze and never relied on that either). But it did have its moments when it could offtank adds for an entire fight and let your group totally ignore them.

Shockwave does have a shorter cd potential, but that doesn't make it better. If you hit the same mobs again within 20 seconds, it's just a DR'd 2 sec stun.

As far as CM's and Mythic dungeons go, an AOE stun is probably the best thing you can have in a group. 100% damage reduction for the duration that stops all mechanics and casting.

[v1perz53]

Shockwave does have a shorter cd potential, but that doesn't make it better. If you hit the same mobs again within 20 seconds, it's just a DR'd 2 sec stun.

As far as CM's and Mythic dungeons go, an AOE stun is probably the best thing you can have in a group. 100% damage reduction for the duration that stops all mechanics and casting.

I mean, nobody is forcing you to use Shockwave before DR is reset, even holding it for 10 seconds it has ~75% the CD of Leg Sweep. I don't think we should judge usefulness of an ability by how it works if people use it wrong. I struggle to see how anyone could argue that Shockwave isn't better than Leg Sweep, even if the second DRs to 2 seconds, that is still 6 seconds of stun in a ~20 second window vs. 5 seconds for Leg Sweep in the same timeframe, though Leg Sweep does win for fights that last just under 20 seconds or just over ~50. That said, both Leg Sweep and Shockwave are amazing, and as you said basically the best possible utility for CMs and Mythic+ dungeons. And while I think Shockwave is better, it is VERY minorly so. Glyphed BoF was really nice as well, but there was the issue with melee attack syncing. Does that not happen with AoE stuns? Pretty much the only downside I could think of would be if it synced the melee attacks of a big group of mobs. But I've used both Leg Sweep and BoF glyph plenty in CMs and never had issues.

[stross01]

I mean, nobody is forcing you to use Shockwave before DR is reset, even holding it for 10 seconds it has ~75% the CD of Leg Sweep. I don't think we should judge usefulness of an ability by how it works if people use it wrong. I struggle to see how anyone could argue that Shockwave isn't better than Leg Sweep, even if the second DRs to 2 seconds, that is still 6 seconds of stun in a ~20 second window vs. 5 seconds for Leg Sweep in the same timeframe, though Leg Sweep does win for fights that last just under 20 seconds or just over ~50. That said, both Leg Sweep and Shockwave are amazing, and as you said basically the best possible utility for CMs and Mythic+ dungeons. And while I think Shockwave is better, it is VERY minorly so. Glyphed BoF was really nice as well, but there was the issue with melee attack syncing. Does that not happen with AoE stuns? Pretty much the only downside I could think of would be if it synced the melee attacks of a big group of mobs. But I've used both Leg Sweep and BoF glyph plenty in CMs and never had issues.

I don't think I've died to a set of sync'd mobs since our last president; it's pretty easy to prepare for.

[Inuyaki]

and the new design is more likely to make monks good progress tanks

I don't think we will be good progression tanks. Our dtps just seems so much higher than for other tanks

[Deleted]

Did some Mythic+ Dungeons yesterday and Pausing Stagger damage for 3 seconds combined with Black Ox Brew felt really strong.

Using Ironskin Brew after every Blackout Strike turns Stagger into a 75% damage reduce for 21 seconds (with Black Ox Brew).
Combined with Leg Sweep and Exploding Keg we were doing some pretty huge pulls.

Probably won't work if the mobs are still alive after 30 seconds though, 300% staggered Damage really hurts.

[Leblue]

Did some Mythic+ Dungeons yesterday and Pausing Stagger damage for 3 seconds combined with Black Ox Brew felt really strong.

Using Ironskin Brew after every Blackout Strike turns Stagger into a 75% damage reduce for 21 seconds (with Black Ox Brew).
Combined with Leg Sweep and Exploding Keg we were doing some pretty huge pulls.

Probably won't work if the mobs are still alive after 30 seconds though, 300% staggered Damage really hurts.

With BoK's cd its possible to chain that for a while for some seriously efficient Purifies though. It'd probably be something you do if you started dipping really low and just needed a break and/or have a brief period of intense damage. I don't disagree with this though, and it might make for some interesting play with your group gauging what the safest mass pull is with such a long period of high reductions and potential aoe ccs. Should be interesting, but obviously something that isn't going to get used a ton outside of more difficult content.

I don't think we will be good progression tanks. Our dtps just seems so much higher than for other tanks

Honestly going off what I've been hearing from several people (so anecdotal warning) I think we're fine, if not fantastic, for most bosses that aren't too heavy on tank damage (aka boring as sin bosses to tank). Bosses like Mythic Botanist may potentially be our bane because once we're out of brew, we're tissue until we get some more and we're still taking heavy damage. I'll be curious where the cards end up falling though. Its also worth noting that DTPS isn't necessarily the most important metric since you can take the most damage but be the easiest tank to efficiently heal. It could be a problem of course, but again live bosses will tell us a lot more.

I don't think I've died to a set of sync'd mobs since our last president; it's pretty easy to prepare for.

Usually a slight reposition is enough to prevent it so yeah not a problem outside of newer tanks who aren't aware of the dangers.

Is anyone actually liking the changes to brewmaster? I think they are amongst the worst changes. Skill level cap blah blah, whatever lol. Rotation feelsbadman. Just curious...

When Legion goes live, give it till level 102 to decide if you really, truly hate it is my recommendation. I'm not saying for sure that some time will fix it, but after the initial rough patch of getting used to it there're people who actually come to enjoy it. If not, you can say you at least gave yourself some time to adjust instead of just an on the fly opinion with only about 10 minutes of trying it.