[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Deleted]

Backlash is not the reason it got removed. It got removed because Blizzard wanted to add ramp up time to our damage and so removed it and forced us to use Seal of Truth instead. Seal of Blood and Seal of Command were both really good and had absolutely no lead time, and Holy Power didn't exist yet, so instead they dumped our big DPS seal and slightly buffed the "tank" Seal, then called it a DPS one. But it required all 5 stacks to actually get going, meaning we had to build it up on targets.

Please stop perpetuating this nonsense about Seal of Blood. It's not the first time and it's never been true. Ever.

As I recall it got removed because at the end of Naxx it was roughly 1-2 shoting players with Judgment of Blood/Martyr. It used to crit for around 12k at a time where 14k Hp was good.

[Snegovik]

I have no idea if it's the best-scaling, or even in the top half of best-scaling specs - I'm merely noting that it should scale better than in MoP / WoD, and better than specs (IIRC Assassination rogues were mentioned) which place more reliance on AP/SP rather than weapon damage (assuming no numbers are tuned later in the expansion of course ).

Don't forget about Blizzard's profound skill and itchy finger when it comes to bashing Rets with Nerf Bat

[Morally Grey Storm]

Backlash is not the reason it got removed. It got removed because Blizzard wanted to add ramp up time to our damage and so removed it and forced us to use Seal of Truth instead. Seal of Blood and Seal of Command were both really good and had absolutely no lead time, and Holy Power didn't exist yet, so instead they dumped our big DPS seal and slightly buffed the "tank" Seal, then called it a DPS one. But it required all 5 stacks to actually get going, meaning we had to build it up on targets.

Please stop perpetuating this nonsense about Seal of Blood. It's not the first time and it's never been true. Ever.

adding the ramp-up was there along the lines, indeed, but I dimly remember something they said back then about Paladin hurting himself and how it promoted non-standart gameplay

[Geso]

SoM also limited encounter design that put a player at really low hp of which SoM would kill the paladin.

[Temna]

adding the ramp-up was there along the lines, indeed, but I dimly remember something they said back then about Paladin hurting himself and how it promoted non-standart gameplay

Made us a liability during Loatheb, also during high stacks during Hodir...kinda one shot my self a few times...good stuff.

[ruiizu]

Made us a liability during Loatheb, also during high stacks during Hodir...kinda one shot my self a few times...good stuff.

There were only two fights where the self damage was really significantly worse than a Warlock's life tapping. One was Melcazar at the top of Karazhan (cause he reduced you to 1 HP and you couldn't be healed temporarily), the other was Loatheb because when you Judged at the end of the mind control, it would do like 300k damage and instantly wreck you (not that you needed to, but I did it anyway just to see how hard I could hit myself).

I never had issues on Hodir, even doing the hard mode. Honestly never had issues in general because of things like Sacred Shield and Art of War Flash of Light critting monstrously hard. I really liked Seal of Blood.

[Reghame]

There were only two fights where the self damage was really significantly worse than a Warlock's life tapping. One was Melcazar at the top of Karazhan (cause he reduced you to 1 HP and you couldn't be healed temporarily), the other was Loatheb because when you Judged at the end of the mind control, it would do like 300k damage and instantly wreck you (not that you needed to, but I did it anyway just to see how hard I could hit myself).

I never had issues on Hodir, even doing the hard mode. Honestly never had issues in general because of things like Sacred Shield and Art of War Flash of Light critting monstrously hard. I really liked Seal of Blood.

blizzard has stated in the past that having mechanics like this is bad. One of these things was indeed seal of blood. things like life tap are also not as mandatory to warlocks as they once were for the same reason, the same reason why warriors dont gain rage for being hit and take damage. Having players take damage to deal damage has always been used to such extremes that it caused issues in the past. this also why most people dislike equality.

[Temna]

There were only two fights where the self damage was really significantly worse than a Warlock's life tapping. One was Melcazar at the top of Karazhan (cause he reduced you to 1 HP and you couldn't be healed temporarily), the other was Loatheb because when you Judged at the end of the mind control, it would do like 300k damage and instantly wreck you (not that you needed to, but I did it anyway just to see how hard I could hit myself).

I never had issues on Hodir, even doing the hard mode. Honestly never had issues in general because of things like Sacred Shield and Art of War Flash of Light critting monstrously hard. I really liked Seal of Blood.

Yah...became a bit of joke though, all in good fun and rough design haha x.x

[Lumineus]

the other was Loatheb because when you Judged at the end of the mind control, it would do like 300k damage and instantly wreck you (not that you needed to, but I did it anyway just to see how hard I could hit myself)

You're thinking of Razuvius. On Loatheb, the problem was that the fight was designed around not receiving heals for long periods of time. So we had suicidal self-castigation on top of NO MANA.

Curiously, neither of you mentioned one-shotting yourselves on Thaddius. Or taking a judge crit right after a cinder on Sarth+.

[istroxpro]

I liked seal of blood. For scenarios like Loatheb and Melcazar there was an option to pick seal of command, loosing DPS alittle but having no problems with survivability.

[Morally Grey Storm]

You're thinking of Razuvius. On Loatheb, the problem was that the fight was designed around not receiving heals for long periods of time. So we had suicidal self-castigation on top of NO MANA.

Curiously, neither of you mentioned one-shotting yourselves on Thaddius. Or taking a judge crit right after a cinder on Sarth+.

oh yes, Thaddeus.
That was glorius.
I have some of the fondest memories of guild healers cursing at me back then

[Ashelorh]

Copying from forums:

Couple of things.

As we all know, class fantasy is a big thing for Legion. With that in mind, can someone explain to me the fantasy behind justicar's vengeance healing? A strike that heals for damage dealt seems much more like a death knight ability to me.

Also some thoughts on animations. I think it'd be cool if crusader strike had 2 or 3 animations. As cool as it is, watching the same golf swing animation over and over gets kind of boring after a while.
Justicar's vengeance ought to have a different, more powerful animation, since it's supposed to be a big damage ability, costing 5 holy power. The jumping attack that death knights use for death strike with the holy weapon glow would work really well I think.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Although I agree about animations, I don't think that those are our urgent problems.
While our Unholy and Frost DK brothers got another blue post about buffing their damage and eliminating certain mechanical bugs, where is our bluepost regarding our real lackluster utility aka Greater Blessings? They don't work properly and their utility overall is questionable. How can we be a supporter class without any meaningful support? What about SoV still on gcd? And the cd of the ability itself?
So many questions and still no answers.

pah!
Retpallies they bunch'o whiners the lot of em! who cares

[Aerknard]

Although I agree about animations, I don't think that those are our urgent problems.
While our Unholy and Frost DK brothers got another blue post about buffing their damage and eliminating certain mechanical bugs, where is our bluepost regarding our real lackluster utility aka Greater Blessings? They don't work properly and their utility overall is questionable. How can we be a supporter class without any meaningful support? What about SoV still on gcd? And the cd of the ability itself?
So many questions and still no answers.

Lol we already got the answer in April fool 2016.
Look. We already gave you guys Ashbringer. Isn’t that enough?

[Deleted]

April 1. 2017:
Retribution Paladin
We saw the errors in our way of handling Retribution Paladins and will make them vailable in the next big patch.

[Morally Grey Storm]

April 1. 2017:
Retribution Paladin
We saw the errors in our way of handling Retribution Paladins and will make them vailable in the next big patch.

April 1. 2018
Retribution Paladin.
Look. We already gave you the middle finger. Isn't that enough?

[Ashelorh]

The Light responds to the righteousness of the blow and invigorates you?

It's mostly the healed for the damage done that seems odd to me. Sounds like lifestealing, which isn't something a paladin would really do.

[Teleros]

Please stop perpetuating this nonsense about Seal of Blood. It's not the first time and it's never been true. Ever.

Whilst I quite agree that their primary issue was Ret's frontloaded burst, I do wonder if fights like Anub'arak also contributed to Seal of Blood's demise. I mean, the final phase of that fight involved keeping everyone on low health, which obviously Ret would have had quite an advantage with if the two emo seals had remained.

= + =

There were only two fights where the self damage was really significantly worse than a Warlock's life tapping. One was Melcazar at the top of Karazhan (cause he reduced you to 1 HP and you couldn't be healed temporarily), the other was Loatheb because when you Judged at the end of the mind control, it would do like 300k damage and instantly wreck you (not that you needed to, but I did it anyway just to see how hard I could hit myself).

You forgot Thaddius. You could suicide on him when stacking the buff lots.

I never had issues on Hodir, even doing the hard mode. Honestly never had issues in general because of things like Sacred Shield and Art of War Flash of Light critting monstrously hard. I really liked Seal of Blood.

Same. On Prince Malchezzar... well I was Alliance so I had to use Seal of Command anyway, but it's not like kekadins in TBC couldn't do the same. Once Alliance got Seal of the Martyr though, I just made sure to be careful at Thaddius et al, and whilst it was fun seeing myself top or nearly top the damage taken meters, I can't recall dying accidentally much, if at all.

= + =

Having players take damage to deal damage has always been used to such extremes that it caused issues in the past. this also why most people dislike equality.

There is a colossal difference between Life Tap, Seal of Blood and rage mechanics or Equality though... namely the amount of damage it does to you. To maximise the effectiveness of Equality you need to be on 1HP. To maximise the effectiveness of rage generation based on damage taken, you need to take a huge amount of damage too.

Life Tap is also rather different from Seal of Blood, because it occurred in much bigger chunks. Back in WotLK it was something like (1490 + 300% SP) health into mana, whereas the reflected damage of Judgement of Blood was, at its highest (ie upon release, before the nerfs to it), (12% AP + 15% WD + 19% SP). The actual seal damage that was reflected was equal to about 12% weapon damage at the same time.

But to maximise the damage of Seal of Blood, you don't need to stand in fire, taunt the boss, or anything like that. You just behave as if it was an ability like Seal of Truth, Righteousness, Command, etc etc etc, except when under buffs that massively increase your damage done or taken.

It was/is literally impossible to deal extra damage with SoB by engaging in the kind of behaviour encouraged by Equality, old rage generation, etc.

So please, enough with the "it encourages bad gameplay" stuff. It's not true and never was.

[Firebert]

Just a couple of questions:

*Have seals gone?
*If you use Holy Wrath at full health, does it do no damage at all?
*What talents are most people going to take at 110? I'm going with the below (swapping out GJ@30 with any of the other two and switching to VB@60 if we want to stack Crit):

http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...tribution/Mny0

[Ashelorh]

I can't believe Holy Wrath is still in. It's there to stay isn't it? Why on earth is it in the PvE tree? This makes my head hurt.

- - - Updated - - -

Just a couple of questions:

*Have seals gone?
*If you use Holy Wrath at full health, does it do no damage at all?
*What talents are most people going to take at 110? I'm going with the below (swapping out GJ@30 with any of the other two and switching to VB@60 if we want to stack Crit):

http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...tribution/Mny0

Seals are kill
Holy Wrath does no damage at full health
Can't know yet, number balancing isn't done, plus someone will simcraft it to figure out what's best.