BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Mehrunes]

Well.. if you want to be all technical about it, right now the UK isn't following the democratic decision of its population that it asked for. Since democracy is a mandatory requirement to be a member of the EU, they could technically be booted for that. But as someone pointed out before, it's a nuke option nobody wants to take.

There are no provisions to remove a country out of EU as punishment. Being undemocratic is still "only" a breach of Article 2 of TEU and carries out the punishments contained in Article 7, i.e. suspension of certain rights and sanctions.

Oh Slant just admit you're angry Brexit happened and stop trying to justify an unfair ousting of the UK before it gets it's affairs in order.

UK should have had it affairs in order even prior to the referendum. With how leave's side champions dropping like flies it's apparent they had no plan and it's questionable if they expected to win or even wanted to. And why the fuck does UK need till October to pick a new Prime Minister? Is it trying to make a point of "EU is so bureaucratic so we will have broken government for almost half a year to show them how it's really done"?

[Slant]

There are no provisions to remove a country out of EU as punishment. Being undemocratic is still "only" a breach of Article 2 of TEU and carries out the punishments contained in Article 7, i.e. suspension of certain rights and sanctions.

Well, yes, those "certain rights" are voting rights, for example. It's essentially a suspension of the membership without suspending the obligations that the treaty puts upon the UK. It's a very harsh punishment nonetheless.

[caervek]

I think waiting until October is stupid

Waiting longer than that... well,

calling for such a decision without actually having anything in place to follow through is more than political amateurship.

*Ahem*

November 28, 1989 - West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl announces a 10-point program for reunification by federation

October 30, 1990 - The flag of a reunited Germany is raised over the Reichstag in Berlin. The GDR ceases to exist. Fireworks go off across the city.

[Deleted]

*Ahem*

November 28, 1989 - West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl announces a 10-point program for reunification by federation

October 30, 1990 - The flag of a reunited Germany is raised over the Reichstag in Berlin. The GDR ceases to exist. Fireworks go off across the city.

Does the UK have a 10 point program for Brexit?

[Noradin]

As we have only had two referendums on the EU, in which the first one was upheld and the second is pending, there is no evidence that they made decision against the will of the people, as the will of the people was unknown and could only be guessed at.

So then why are you* arguing that there was?

*you, since you felt the need to take over the argument and answer rethorical questions.

[Slant]

*Ahem*

November 28, 1989 - West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl announces a 10-point program for reunification by federation

October 30, 1990 - The flag of a reunited Germany is raised over the Reichstag in Berlin. The GDR ceases to exist. Fireworks go off across the city.

Not sure what your point is. So Germans know how to do this shit better than you, we already knew that before. *shrug*

Hardly comparable situations, too. The reunification was a much more tense situation with much heavier repercussions than this little British rebellion (which will be reversed in 10-20 years anyway).

Edit: Btw, it's October 3rd. :P

[caervek]

Does the UK have a 10 point program for Brexit?

1: Cameron resigns.

2: Boris hides.

3: Farage runs.

4: Corbyn stands his ground and his party splits.

5: Theresa May becomes PM.

6: She invokes article 50.

7: It turns out she is actually a cloned body used for housing the soul of Thatcher.

8: She closes the coal mines, again.

9: She nukes Argentina, because.

10: The UK descended into anarchy and all sorts of chaos ensues, I.E people start eating sheep instead of ****ing them.

- - - Updated - - -

Not sure what your point is.

That the only comparable thing your country has done (in recent times) took almost a full year from announcement of intent to completion and our announcement of intent hasn't even happened yet.

[Slant]

That the only comparable thing your country has done (in recent times) took almost a full year from announcement of intent to completion and our announcement of intent hasn't even happened yet.

It's not even close to comparable. The German reunification had much bigger issues to deal with. As I said before, the Brexit is a joke in comparison. It's not even the same ballpark. And your shortened timeline ignores a few key moments that happened before:

General elections in the GDR in March (to give all of this democratic legitimacy), a currency union treaty in May, the actual currency union happening in June (amazingly enough by today's standards, the worthless East Mark was traded 1:1 to the West Mark), a reunification treaty being negotiatated not just with the GDR, but with the allied forces still occupying both countries and so on and so forth.

Really, one year for Britain? If you achieve just a hundredth of all of this within one year, I'll make amends and take everything back I said. But so far, you've done jack shit except disable your whole legislative body regarding this topic. Good luck!

[caervek]

your shortened timeline ignores a few key moments that happened before

That's why I said it was from announcement of intent to completion (and our announcement of intent hasn't even happened yet).

so far, you've done jack ****

Publically yes, but as I said our announcement of intent hasn't even happened yet.

[Slant]

That's why I said it was from announcement of intent to completion (and our announcement of intent hasn't even happened yet).




Publically yes, but as I said our announcement of intent hasn't even happened yet.

Well, I'm willing to be surprised. The talk about having such a plan by next year doesn't speak for much speed, though.

[Ravenblade]

The GDR, however, did not fare so well. They basically copied every of our moves but due to some peculiarities never achieved our efficiency. Socialism didn't encourage entrepeneurship nor hard labour. You get paid the same amount as the laziest guy in your factory, no matter how hard you put your back into it. It's just a small scale example, but this is part of a problem that continued all the way up in business. And obliterated cities or even carrying all the old machinery off to the Soviet Union did not help them at all. It had zero effect after they rebuild shit like West Germany did.

By the way, the Soviets didn't have any reparations by East Germany as far as I know. So there goes your reparation being dropped argument.

They tried to copy the Sovietunion Stalinist model at first and they didn't really succeed. It was actually and ironically Honecker who tried to ease things up end of 60s, beginning of 70s actually which were actually the golden years of the GDR so to speak. The Soviets demanded full reparations which they got repaid in full (last wagon left some time late in 1989), we even paid reparations to Poland inbetween. The East German workforce was even more decimated due to males either fleeing West or still being held in Soviet prison camps.

[Slant]

They tried to copy the Sovietunion Stalinist model at first and they didn't really succeed. It was actually and ironically Honecker who tried to ease things up end of 60s, beginning of 70s actually which were actually the golden years of the GDR so to speak. The Soviets demanded full reparations which they got repaid in full (last wagon left some time late in 1989), we even paid reparations to Poland inbetween. The East German workforce was even more decimated due to males either fleeing West or still being held in Soviet prison camps.

Huh, I could've sworn the Soviets didn't get monetary reparations as they simply took entire factories and transplanted them somewhere beyond the Ural. My historical knowledge of the GDR is somewhat shady, I admit. I've never had much interest for East Germany pre-1989.

[Mehrunes]

That the only comparable thing your country has done (in recent times) took almost a full year from announcement of intent to completion and our announcement of intent hasn't even happened yet.

But the trigger for reunification was the Peaceful Revolution between October (or late September, not 100% sure) and November culminating in the fall of the Berlin Wall on 9th of November. So it took Germany less than three weeks for their announcement of intent to happen after the trigger. UK, on the other hand, did announce that theirs will happen at best around 3 months after UK's trigger.

[Tinch]

UK should have had it affairs in order even prior to the referendum. With how leave's side champions dropping like flies it's apparent they had no plan and it's questionable if they expected to win or even wanted to. And why the fuck does UK need till October to pick a new Prime Minister? Is it trying to make a point of "EU is so bureaucratic so we will have broken government for almost half a year to show them how it's really done"?

Is this becoming a version of if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it? There have been 2 leave campaigners that have 'dropped out' - Boris Johnson, who actually wanted to run for PM but couldn't get sufficient support from his own party; and Nigel Farage, who it has been clear from the start was never going to be involved in the negotiation process. Even if he miraculously was he has said he would like to be involved anyway, he just doesn't want to be the leader of UKIP anymore.

The blame lies squarely at the feet of Cameron and the current government, they're the ones who should have had a contingency plan in place. He is supposed to be a public servant and the interests of the public should overcome his own petulance.

[Deleted]

The blame lies squarely at the feet of Cameron and the current government, they're the ones who should have had a contingency plan in place. He is supposed to be a public servant and the interests of the public should overcome his own petulance.

He did. After he lost, he left the scene as a loser should do and let the winners reap their rewards. That reward being leading the country out of this mess they were campaigning for.

[Ravenblade]

Huh, I could've sworn the Soviets didn't get monetary reparations as they simply took entire factories and transplanted them somewhere beyond the Ural. My historical knowledge of the GDR is somewhat shady, I admit. I've never had much interest for East Germany pre-1989.

They had their major factories and infrastructure dismantled and required further payments. The Soviet nukes all used uranium mined in Wismut making it the biggest forced labor camp for a while until there was a revolt and workers demanded better conditions. People were encouraged to work and the system did reward it but scarcity meant that assembly lines stood still and people were condemned to doing nothing. Just recently I was talking with my uncle about the old times who was a lead engineer of a major electronics company (VEB Sternradio Gera), he told me how things were run often requiring a certain level of shady deals and personal relationships in order not to let assembly lines run continuously. As usual the Soviets got the best material (part of the reparation deal) while the East took what was left over or, well, that stuff which miraculously could be hidden away.
The GDR was the major producer for goods and machinery in the Communist bloc. Of course the SU did try to be nice as well...for a while, until they decided to raise oil prices drastically - which by the way was the reason for why the GDR was working on mass-electrification of their railways in the 80s.

[Slant]

The blame lies squarely at the feet of Cameron and the current government, they're the ones who should have had a contingency plan in place. He is supposed to be a public servant and the interests of the public should overcome his own petulance.

This is cute. Cameron opposed Leave. He was a firm Remainer. You're expecting the Prime Minister, whose policy got rejected by general referendum, to stay in office and do something he doesn't stand for? That's undemocratic on both counts, mate. Nah, him resigning is actually proper. What's not proper is that the side winning this by all democratic standards doesn't have a clue on what to do next.

[Tinch]

He did. After he lost, he left the scene as a loser should do and let the winners reap their rewards. That reward being leading the country out of this mess they were campaigning for.

A new leader has to be elected before they have the authority to do anything. To leave the country with basically no leadership for 2-3 months is not the sign of a good PM.

[Slant]

A new leader has to be elected before they have the authority to do anything. To leave the country with basically no leadership for 2-3 months is not the sign of a good PM.

It's a part of democracy. Nobody's asking him to actually have a plan for something he doesn't stand for. The only thing that's really expected of him is to invoke Article 50. After that, it's up to the Leave side to come up with solutions.

[Tinch]

This is cute. Cameron opposed Leave. He was a firm Remainer. You're expecting the Prime Minister, whose policy got rejected by general referendum, to stay in office and do something he doesn't stand for? That's undemocratic on both counts, mate. Nah, him resigning is actually proper. What's not proper is that the side winning this by all democratic standards doesn't have a clue on what to do next.

That's exactly what he said he was going to do, so yes I would expect him to keep to his word and at least have a plan in place until a new leader is chosen.

The leave side has no authority to do anything at the moment. Some of the candidates for leader have begun to set out their vision for Brexit but they can't do anything while we have a lame duck PM sitting in office, what would you expect of them?

And the Leave campaign was a cross party group, they're not a 'side' in any political sense and will have wildly different views on what Brexit should look like. Why was anyone expecting a group of Labour, Tory, UKIP and Green party members to come up with a unified plan of what would happen next?