Legion - Subtlety discussion

[kalaratic]

Truth be told the only things I am really annoyed at from Legions changes are the UI fluff. Fading blocks for HP damage (rather than being instant), Fading blocks for Energy usage (rather than being instant), changing the combo points bar, no more old animations, no poisons for my Sub Rogue, the changed name plates, old tier sets turning gray in quality and deactivated bonuses, (may not be true) the change to melee range from 5 yards to 8 yards, and the sound changes on Cheap Shot - Mut and other abilities.

that fading shit pissed me off too. here are the commands to fix it:

health = /run SetCVar("predictedHealth", 0) ReloadUI()
energy = /console showSpenderFeedback 0

this thread has a bunch of them if you need any more

[Deleted]

Cryptnic, perhaps you weren't directly responding to me, (which seems to be the case, since you disagreed with the merging of BS/SS - a proposition which I never alluded to myself, nor would it affect me either way), that said, you did mention moving away from the use of default bar paging - which I myself do, but I do use stance macros which will be unavailable come Legion...making two sets of completely different keybinds for the same spells...which is unnecessary & dumb, IMO.

Yes sorry, It was more of myself chiming in on that discussion, didn't mean to be... cryptic, in who I was talking to/about. But what you said is new to me, I only thought they removed Stealth bar, not default bar 2-9. did I read that wrong and only the stealth stance bar is been removed?

You're right that making bindings for Stab and strike is unnecessary, but that's just how it's always been, we must jump through blizzards hoops to play how we want.

Personally I think everyone should move away from default bars.

that fading shit pissed me off too. here are the commands to fix it:

health = /run SetCVar("predictedHealth", 0) ReloadUI()
energy = /console showSpenderFeedback 0

this thread has a bunch of them if you need any more

Absolutely fantastic, thank you.

[elfporn]

Yes sorry, It was more of myself chiming in on that discussion, didn't mean to be... cryptic, in who I was talking to/about. But what you said is new to me, I only thought they removed Stealth bar, not default bar 2-9. did I read that wrong and only the stealth stance bar is been removed?

You're right that making bindings for Stab and strike is unnecessary, but that's just how it's always been, we must jump through blizzards hoops to play how we want.

Personally I think everyone should move away from default bars.


Absolutely fantastic, thank you.

it's not about the default bars, the act of paging to the stealth bar during shadow dance has been removed. Shadow dance no longer "hooks" to a stance at all, making us unable to use macros or addons to fix the issue. They deliberately took the time to remove all available ways to switch to the stealth bar during dance except manually paging to another bar via its assigned hotkey.

It's a ridiculous asshole move, not least because of all the other classes who have abilities that behave exactly the same as bs/ss.

[Soisoisoi]

Personally I think everyone should move away from default bars.

The UI isn't the issue, it's the action bar/stance conditional for Shadow Dance being completely removed. I definitely wouldn't have an issue if it was just UI.

I'm sure it's understood by most anyway but I just want to reiterate it:

• Backstab and Ambush are essentially the same thing.
• I have Backstab on 1;
• In stealth/Dance, I have Ambush on 1.

There is now no dance bar, Ambush now needs to be moved to somewhere I can hit it after it has been in the same place for my Rogue's existence.. Considering that time frame is nearing half my actual life span, that's a considerable amount of muscle memory. Especially when you consider in my UI as shown above - I don't even have action bars shown.

The issue doesn't start and end with these two abilities though. It also means you need another keybind for Cheap Shot, Sap, etc - all the usual stealth/dance abilities that otherwise would have been there. Fortunately for me as a PvPer I already had most of this sorted.

I can normally get over Blizzard's derpy shit but, considering I've mained Rogue forever with Sub as my favourite spec.. What they have done to it just makes it nigh-unplayable for me. It wasn't needed, it isn't needed. It should be changed back.

[Kainslife]

The UI isn't the issue, it's the action bar/stance conditional for Shadow Dance being completely removed. I definitely wouldn't have an issue if it was just UI.

I'm sure it's understood by most anyway but I just want to reiterate it:

• Backstab and Ambush are essentially the same thing.
• I have Backstab on 1;
• In stealth/Dance, I have Ambush on 1.

There is now no dance bar, Ambush now needs to be moved to somewhere I can hit it after it has been in the same place for my Rogue's existence.. Considering that time frame is nearing half my actual life span, that's a considerable amount of muscle memory. Especially when you consider in my UI as shown above - I don't even have action bars shown.

The issue doesn't start and end with these two abilities though. It also means you need another keybind for Cheap Shot, Sap, etc - all the usual stealth/dance abilities that otherwise would have been there. Fortunately for me as a PvPer I already had most of this sorted.

I can normally get over Blizzard's derpy shit but, considering I've mained Rogue forever with Sub as my favourite spec.. What they have done to it just makes it nigh-unplayable for me. It wasn't needed, it isn't needed. It should be changed back.

Stop being a prima donna about this. An hour on a dummy and your muscle memory will be rewired.

[Soisoisoi]

Stop being a prima donna about this. An hour on a dummy and your muscle memory will be rewired.

Yeah, unfortunately not. 10 years of muscle memory doesn't fade that easily. Not to mention it means replacing other abilities that have been there the same amount of time for a "main" ability spot.

There is no reason this should have changed, there is no reason we should have to "rewire" our muscle memory for such a stupid thing.

[elfporn]

Stop being a prima donna about this. An hour on a dummy and your muscle memory will be rewired.

It's not about relearning muscle memory, it's a nonsensical change. It negatively affects sub rogue's QoL experience and goes against all other examples of the same situation in the game. For whatever reason they want to make shadow dance and stealth distinct(and by extension ss/bs) when they are not.

There's no argument for the change that holds any kind of water against its negative impact on the feel and play of the spec.

Would you like it if they did this for druids abilities? demon hunters? DH has at least 2 pairs of abilities that swap conditionally like bs/ss should. how about for hunter and DK pets?

It's the kind of change that, using the logic celestalon has given, could be applied to any abilities that change conditionally or are paired like bs/ss. It needs to stop, and be reverted.

[Deleted]

The transition is gonna be harder true.

[Kainslife]

It's not about relearning muscle memory, it's a nonsensical change. It negatively affects sub rogue's QoL experience and goes against all other examples of the same situation in the game. For whatever reason they want to make shadow dance and stealth distinct(and by extension ss/bs) when they are not.

There's no argument for the change that holds any kind of water against its negative impact on the feel and play of the spec.

Would you like it if they did this for druids abilities? demon hunters? DH has at least 2 pairs of abilities that swap conditionally like bs/ss should. how about for hunter and DK pets?

It's the kind of change that, using the logic celestalon has given, could be applied to any abilities that change conditionally or are paired like bs/ss. It needs to stop, and be reverted.

That's fine. But pretending that it somehow makes Sub unplayable because of "muscle memory" is just as nonsensical as the change itself. We're not professional golfers changing our swing after 11 years. You're just a regular person using your pinky instead of your index finger.

[Soisoisoi]

That's fine. But pretending that it somehow makes Sub unplayable because of "muscle memory" is just as nonsensical as the change itself. We're not professional golfers changing our swing after 11 years. You're just a regular person using your pinky instead of your index finger.

Why does it make any difference? Something we've all been used to for years now has to suddenly change, and we also have to change another ability that has been where we are now going to have to put Shadowstrike because of that. It's just clunky as fuck having two abilities that do exactly the same thing, where one of them is not getting used at all when the other can be. It ruins the fluidity of the spec.

I've hated Assassination for years because of how slow it played and that Dispatch/BS below 35% was just an awful mechanic, but now compared to how Sub plays currently it's a godsend.

[Kainslife]

Why does it make any difference? Something we've all been used to for years now has to suddenly change, and we also have to change another ability that has been where we are now going to have to put Shadowstrike because of that. It's just clunky as fuck having two abilities that do exactly the same thing, where one of them is not getting used at all when the other can be. It ruins the fluidity of the spec.

I've hated Assassination for years because of how slow it played and that Dispatch/BS below 35% was just an awful mechanic, but now compared to how Sub plays currently it's a godsend.

I'm not arguing that it isn't clunky. I'm saying that you're being overdramatic and overreacting to it. You're being petulant over having to move your finger half an inch, as if that somehow makes the entire spec unplayable. I mean think about what you're saying: the fact that you have to press 4 instead of 3 means that the spec is unplayable to you? You're being ridiculous.

[Soisoisoi]

I'm not arguing that it isn't clunky. I'm saying that you're being overdramatic and overreacting to it. You're being petulant over having to move your finger half an inch, as if that somehow makes the entire spec unplayable. I mean think about what you're saying: the fact that you have to press 4 instead of 3 means that the spec is unplayable to you? You're being ridiculous.

Listen, if you're going to ignore what I have wrote then I'm just not going to bother replying. It's not about extra buttons. Hell I love more buttons. Re-read it.

[Kainslife]

Listen, if you're going to ignore what I have wrote then I'm just not going to bother replying. It's not about extra buttons. Hell I love more buttons. Re-read it.

I'm not missing anything you wrote. You said having to press 4 instead of 3 "ruins the fluidity" of the spec, which is hyperbole, completely ruining Sub for you. So much so, in fact, that a spec you dislike suddenly is more palatable to you. All because of having to press two buttons instead of one.

Sub must otherwise be in an amazing state if you're being this much of a prima donna over this minor thing.

[shaunika123]

I'm not arguing that it isn't clunky. I'm saying that you're being overdramatic and overreacting to it. You're being petulant over having to move your finger half an inch, as if that somehow makes the entire spec unplayable. I mean think about what you're saying: the fact that you have to press 4 instead of 3 means that the spec is unplayable to you? You're being ridiculous.

simple: there is no reason for it

if i have to do ANYTHING for no reason then im upset
it's redudant, and goes against everything blizzard has been saying the past 2 years

[Tellof]

I'm not arguing that it isn't clunky. I'm saying that you're being overdramatic and overreacting to it. You're being petulant over having to move your finger half an inch, as if that somehow makes the entire spec unplayable. I mean think about what you're saying: the fact that you have to press 4 instead of 3 means that the spec is unplayable to you? You're being ridiculous.

I basically made this point last week and a few people jumped down my throat. People really, really hate the change to the point that it seems completely irrational to me. I too get that it's a dumb change and all, but the resulting action we have to take to work around it is pretty trivial if you ask me. I'd back off on this one if I were you, because they aren't going to budge and you're just going to waste your time.

[elfporn]

I'm not missing anything you wrote. You said having to press 4 instead of 3 "ruins the fluidity" of the spec, which is hyperbole, completely ruining Sub for you. So much so, in fact, that a spec you dislike suddenly is more palatable to you. All because of having to press two buttons instead of one.

Sub must otherwise be in an amazing state if you're being this much of a prima donna over this minor thing.

it does ruin the "fluidity" of the spec.

You're goin along, pressing 2 every few seconds, and 1, 3, or 4 for finishers, and you press shadow dance and keep pressing 2, smoothly transitioning to ambush.

With this change you've got to find an additional hotkey and immediately swap to it as soon as you shadow dance, else you waste a gcd on...backstab.

How many raiders will become frustrated by hitting backstab instead of shadowstrike during shadowdances? it's jarring to people who've had smooth transitions for a decade.

But wait! there's more! that smooth transition we want still exists for vanish and OOC stealth - completely inconsistent.

It's a big deal for many reasons. not just for extra hotkeys needed, muscle mem, the annoyance, the jarring gameplay, the bad precedent it sets, the unfairness as compared to other classes, the inconsistency within the spec and compared to other classes, the confusing gameplay for new players due to inconsistency.

Did i forget anything?

Edit: yes i forgot that it adds to the complexity of a complexly nuanced spec, significantly so for pvpers.
Edit: Clunky too, because everyone loves to use that word to describe this debacle.

And celestalon says he made the change because bs and ss should be distinct. I feel like he needs a baseball bat to the face, knock some sense into his dumb ass.

[Kainslife]

I basically made this point last week and a few people jumped down my throat. People really, really hate the change to the point that it seems completely irrational to me. I too get that it's a dumb change and all, but the resulting action we have to take to work around it is pretty trivial if you ask me. I'd back off on this one if I were you, because they aren't going to budge and you're just going to waste your time.

I've got a serious bout of diarrhea from the holiday yesterday so I've got nothing better to do when I'm stuck on the can.

[RobertoCarlos]

Snip

I still think its a coding problem they cbf fixing so give us the bullshit excuse of "not enough buttons in stealth". Nothing else makes sense.

[toolsv]

So I'm pretty new to rogues and even newer to sub and I'm finding this paging thing really awkward too. I don't mind having Backstab and Shadowstrike on separate buttons even though it's not what I would have done if I was making the game.

What gets to me is that you need all your stealth abilities on your normal bars if you want to use them in Shadow Dance, and you need all your regular abilities on your stealth bar if you're going to use Subterfuge and Vanish. Both stealth paging in Shadow Dance and getting rid of the stealth page altogether make sense to me but what we've got now really seems like the worst of both worlds.

[Tellof]

So I'm pretty new to rogues and even newer to sub and I'm finding this paging thing really awkward too. I don't mind having Backstab and Shadowstrike on separate buttons even though it's not what I would have done if I was making the game.

What gets to me is that you need all your stealth abilities on your normal bars if you want to use them in Shadow Dance, and you need all your regular abilities on your stealth bar if you're going to use Subterfuge and Vanish. Both stealth paging in Shadow Dance and getting rid of the stealth page altogether make sense to me but what we've got now really seems like the worst of both worlds.

Yes, but this is easily fixed by using something like Bartender and turning off paging. It still requires re-learning a little muscle memory but at least you're not keeping track of 2 locations for some skills depending on if you're in stealth/vanish/shadowdance which will remove any thought delay.

- - - Updated - - -

I still think its a coding problem they cbf fixing so give us the bullshit excuse of "not enough buttons in stealth". Nothing else makes sense.

They explicitly stated in a blue post that they want BS and SS to feel like distinct skills, so it will take quite a bit of negative feedback from the larger community for them to pull it back at this point.